Category: Editorial

CHINESE VERSION

連結收聽 Bungalovv 為 HKCR 特製的 Mix

海外巡演常置人於飄搖的情況－SIM卡沒辦法運作，付款方式屢遭拒絕，與複雜的地緣政治離不開關係的簽證申請過程。 然而，以Bungalovv為名發行音樂的Pablo Betas，在開啟三個月的亞洲巡演前，便已對飄搖的環境了熟於心。 他在阿根廷飄搖不定的經濟及政治環境中度過了大半輩子，前幾年則作為移民工人在柏林的創意行業中工作，這些經歷已使他與飄搖（precarity）結下了深厚的關係。 他的人生是以持續的創作去面對飄搖處境的故事。

訪問：梁安琳 Anlin Liang

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訪談是在廣州進行的。 Pablo在我前一天舉辦演出的DIY場地也演了一個小型的免費派對。 兩天都有警察出現，都是來說我們聲音太大的，但場地其實不靠近任何居民大樓。 幸好我們收到的都是輕微的警告，沒有任何實質的麻煩。

上一年夏天，我從倫敦搬回中國。 在一年多的時間裡，我目睹了廣州的數個場地的開幕和倒閉。 這裡面有俱樂部，也有多功能DIY空間。 我有一些在俱樂部工作過的朋友至今仍被欠薪；演出費遲遲收不到這種事情也時常出現，但這樣的待遇主要還是留給本地稍微沒那麼出名的藝人的。

本地藝人在彼此之間會談論這些不公義的遭遇。 本地藝人也會討論國際藝人和本地藝人之間所受到的差別對待。 很多時候，跟國際藝人相比，本地藝人投入更多的努力，甚至有更精彩的演出，然而獲得的報酬和機會卻少得多。 所以，當Pablo在我們向我提及這次巡演中有的活動主辦給請他這樣的國際藝人，卻不給本地藝人付錢時，我自然是感到極其驚訝，甚至因為有人說出這件事 而心生感激。 整體來說，Pablo在我心中是個對不平衡的權力關係有敏銳意識的人。

在2018年的一篇訪談（中文）裡，Pablo提到他跟幾個藝術家一同在布宜諾斯艾利斯組成了一個名為TRRUENO的團體（TRRUENO来自西班牙語的 「trueno 」 ，意即 「 雷电 」 ） ，這個團體是面對當時政治，經濟和文化狀況的必要產物。 在另一篇對TRRUENO成員的訪談（英文）中，他們也提到了在布宜諾斯艾利斯舉辦活動不是那麼容易的事情，糟糕的經濟狀況和警察暴力構成了重重阻礙。 我讓Pablo為我對這個情況作更詳細的解釋。

「在阿根廷，左右翼政府不斷輪替，他們各自都總是會去摧毀前一任政府做過的事情……他們總是在摧毀一切，這讓人無法創造出任何東西來。」在Cristina Fernández de Kirchner 在帶領的左翼政府下，TRRUENO有組織工作坊和在博物館演出的機會，甚至還受到當地報紙的採訪。 但即便在那時，掌管布宜諾斯艾利斯這座城市的，是日後的右翼總統Mauricio Macri——他在這座城市裡有自己的警察，而這些警察總是在檢查各種場地，尋找各種能威脅場地關門的細節（比方說該空間的度量），不停對場地進行罰款，場地只能靠給他們提供免費酒水或分給他們門票收入使他們停止騷擾。

THUMP的一篇文章（英文）指出，阿根廷對夜生活的限制政策始於2004年的一場大火——這場大火發生在一所名為República Cromañón的夜店裡，致使194人喪生。 但是有懲罰性質的政策針對的主要還是小型DIY派對，而非大型活動。 Pablo說，在舉辦活動時，演出陣容必須要涵括樂隊；場地裡出現的鼓或吉他音箱能夠制止警察來騷擾活動。 這主要是跟管製成本相關：小型DIY場地若要走法律程序註冊，註冊成「樂隊場地」比「俱樂部」更容易。 Pablo說，「在政府更替後，他們開始對小型場地窮追猛打，想辦法讓這些場地關門，如果看到有人跳舞，有電子音樂在播放，就會對場地進行罰款。」有的場地甚至會貼海報說「你不能在此跳舞」。 場地不斷倒閉。

擁有自己的空間做自己想做的事情，這本身就是一個政治性的事件，但是演奏音樂或舉辦活動的政治意義是否被浪漫化了呢？ Pablo可不這麼想。 「這聽起來可能比較陳腔濫調，但我是來自噪音/龐克場景的，我認為地下音樂環境中很多想要被聽見，也想要跟他人產生連結的少數群體。很多時候俱樂部是個主要的輸出 點，但它也許不是最好的輸出點或我們選擇的輸出點。在阿根廷，乃至整個拉丁美洲，音樂都是非常政治化的東西。我記得HiedraH Club de Baile的許多派對是在布宜諾斯艾利斯的街頭上舉辦的，或者他們會在派對上播放有關國內發生的不公正事件的音頻，這些事件主流媒體是不會提及的。 」

我們坐下來進行採訪的第一件事就是看著Pablo打開FL Studio展示他的創意過程。 他拖進了一些坎比亞（Cumbia）鼓的取樣，切割，然後以不同方式重新安排切過的取樣，加入效果，改變單一取樣的聲音。 轉眼間已有好幾個音軌疊在一起——Pablo承認他在編排聲音和取樣這方面比較混亂無序，而FL Studio簡易直接（也不需要擔心取樣必須待在同一個音軌上）的拖拽方式，正中他內心對電子遊戲的喜愛。 他在青少年時期玩過許多電子遊戲，同時也開始使用FL Studio，並在不知道採樣為何物的情況下發現了使用音訊檔案作為採樣的可能性。 他開始用電子遊戲裡的聲音製作簡單的歌曲；因為他最初的電子音樂作品大多是8-bit音樂。

Pablo也承認他並不是特別喜歡技術方面的東西，因為他在當中找不到喜悅。 但他的確是透過跟比較技術狂的朋友坐在一起，聽他們解釋而學會了像混音這樣的技巧。 他強調在音樂創作中，他人的協助和意見是很重要的。 「 其實我很討厭全能電子音樂人/製作人或一個人是一支樂隊這樣的概念。因為我認為在創作過程中總是有很多人一起參與的，這樣音樂也會更有趣，更豐富。 」

『其實我很討厭全能電子音樂人/製作人或一個人是一支樂隊這樣的概念。因為我認為在創作過程中總是有很多人一起參與的，這樣音樂也會更有趣，更豐富 。』

我總是對那些意識到可以用在環境中找到的/錄製的聲音創作音樂的人感到好奇——我有個這麼做的朋友房門口貼著Pierre Schaeffer的海報。 Pablo也會用很多他自己錄製的的聲音。 於是我問他為何會產生這樣的想法，而答案很簡單：他在DIY朋克場景中成長，總是在樂隊裡演奏，因此總是做好錄製的準備，比方說一首歌的構思。 他用過卡式錄音機，後面用了數位的錄音機，現在則是用手機來錄音。 他愛各種聲音——鑰匙碰撞的聲音，項鍊掉到桌面的聲音，甚至是對講機的嘀聲……這些對他來說都是值得錄下來的有意思的聲音。

Pablo在樂團的參與以及對吉他音樂的熱愛——直到現在他還是不停在聽My Bloody Valentine，The Jesus and Mary Chain和Deftones，近期最愛的樂團則是Duster——也影響了他後來的 創作，將他跟解構俱樂部這種帶有實驗意味的聲音連結在一起。 「我總是在樂團裡彈吉他，因此很喜歡各種效果，喜歡做一些很雜訊的東西，也總是會去看噪音演出。」在2016年遭遇的一場車禍後，他重新打開FL Studio ，不知不覺做起了類似的「噪音」。 一開始他以為這樣的聲音很難在軟體內實現，但後來當他看到軟體內的效果跟吉他踏板有著一模一樣的參數後，便意識到他可以在軟體內做吉他也能做的事；只 不過它聽起來跟吉他不一樣，完全變成了另一種樂器。 俱樂部這一環境在當時並非他做音樂的主要參照物，他更多是在音樂上作自己的實驗。 然而，他開始看到人們會在他和他的朋友演奏音樂時跳舞——他們演奏的音樂如今大多會被歸類為Witch House/Electroclash或純粹是「實驗」音樂。「我覺得，俱樂部更大程度上是從這樣開始的吧，不過我們一直都是很實驗的。我們的觀眾也是會去看噪音演出的人。」

墨西哥廠牌Infinite Machine的創辦人Charlie Juarez請Pablo為廠牌製作一張專輯（而非EP），給Pablo在製作更為以打擊樂為中心的，更「俱樂部」的音樂這一道路上又額外 推了一把。 「他讓我嘗試不同的歌曲結構，因為我之前做的曲子都是偏電影感的。我總是在開頭引入一些聲音，漸漸加入更多聲音，然後在歌曲的結尾，所以聲音糅合在一起又 消散，一直都是同樣的結構…於是我開始去探索不同的結構，比方說用一聲巨響來開頭，用底鼓來開頭，我喜歡上了這樣來做歌，並為專輯做了14首demo 。」其中的六首最終變成了《Donde Hubo Fuego》這張專輯，而在製作過程中的許多構思則被收進了硬碟中，擱置起來——「那些都只是實驗」。

Pablo回想起這個過程說，「做電子音樂跟在樂團演奏的不同之處在於，做電子音樂時，你是先錄製了一首歌，再去弄清楚如何現場演奏出來；而在跟樂團去錄音室錄音之前，你已經排練了多次，已經得知道如何演奏了。所以在做電子音樂時會累積很多作為練習或即興的，有潛力的曲子，而它們的未來取決於你的藝術發展方向。 」

Pablo一輩子都在做音樂，但妨礙眾多藝術家的共通死穴——完美主義——他一開始並沒有將自己的創作分享給世人。 在經歷了2016年的那場車禍後——當時他正準備從黑心公司離職——一切都改變了。 由於醫療系統失效，頭骨破碎的他當天沒有接受任何治療，後來由於手術會導致他左耳失聰，他沒有動手術，而是接受了高強度的藥物治療。 Pablo的左耳聽力還沒完全恢復，他形容左耳像是時時刻刻帶著個低通濾波器（low-pass filter），或是活在水下一般。

這次不幸的對生命脆弱的見解將他從先前的猶豫和不自信中拉了出來。 「如果我死了，我所有的構思，所有的創作都發不出來了，也就沒有人會知道。自此我對自己的音樂心態更放鬆了，也開始作更多的發行，更多的演出。」

在身體恢復期間，Pablo去了一趟柏林，在到達的第二晚他就已經遇見了Mechatok，Lotic，Ziúr，Gil，Mobilegirl，Dinamarca…「我在Soundcloud上關注的人都在這裡了。」他在阿根廷時會放這些製作人的音樂，所以當他看到這些製作人也放自己和朋友的音樂時，他感到無比驚喜。

上述的許多音樂人都是一場名為解構俱樂部的風潮中的明星，Pablo當初也是因為像Astrosuka這樣的朋友介紹而因此了解這個場景。 「解構俱樂部」一詞現在似乎不大受待見，但是Pablo看起來並不介意。 他說這個風潮讓很多從金屬，實驗背景和龐克場景的人們聚在一起進行交流。 「我覺得這個風潮是由許多對音樂產業憤怒，不喜歡這個系統的人對這一行業的重新詮釋，並在線上以席捲一切的勢頭繁衍。對於TRRUENO而言，這場風潮還幫了我們很多 ，因為自此開始在地球另一端也有人放我們的音樂。這完全是網絡的功勞。」

Pablo決心搬去柏林，但整個過程比原計劃多花了兩年的時間，因為佩索在一場急劇的經濟危機中不斷貶值。 他必須接下比之前多得多的工作，為去柏林的簽證申請和差旅生活費存錢。 Pablo在布宜諾斯艾利斯和柏林的「正職」都是在視覺領域內。 他由親身經歷知道，當人們將激情轉化為賴以生存的工作時，剛開始的好奇心和激情會很快消散——他曾經也做過VJ，且很享受自己創作視覺，但在媒體和廣告業的工作奪走了那種快樂；他很難再為自己進行創作。

事實上，在出發進行亞洲巡迴之前，Pablo才剛辭掉了一份工作，他過去三年的簽證都是跟那份工作掛鉤的。 他任職的那家公司在疫情期間裁掉了他的許多同事，工作任務就全都轉移到了他的身上。 這在他的記憶中是一段非常陰鬱的時光——每天長時間工作，薪資卻不見漲。 合約裡的一項條款讓他不得不忍受這不公平的待遇：如果辭職，他的簽證狀況會變得非常不穩定。

他盡量不以音樂作為收入來源。 音樂也許無法帶給他穩定的收入，但在某種程度上為他帶來了更多移動上的自由。 「我以前住在我媽媽家裡一個很小的房間裡，在一台破爛電腦上做音樂，身無分文。當時我的處境實話說是很飄搖的。」但如今他在亞洲遊歷，在東亞和東南亞演出，而這都是他所創作的音樂帶給他的東西。 Pablo說他在深圳演出時跟同場的DJ Nigga Fox聊過一模一樣的話題——他們都来自較為貧窮的家庭，但音樂把他們帶到了此前根本去不到的地方。

Pablo在Genome 6.66Mbp的最新發行《Visited by Strangers》靈感來自他在某個Instagram帳號上看到的一幅畫，而這幅畫最終成為了該EP的封面藝術。 它是由一位名為Rafał Borcz的波蘭藝術家所創作的，畫面描繪的是身披白色月光，在蕭肅且佈滿荊棘的森林中行走的狼群。 Palo說這幅畫讓他彷彿孤身一人在迎接某些奇異事物的來臨，而當它來的時候，「你要去迎接它」。 EP上的歌曲是在疫情期間所作的，那時死亡和世界終結的感覺是如此地迫切。

我問Pablo，在車禍後，他對死亡的恐懼是增加了還是減少了，他回答說他更害怕死亡了。 「但是，」他回想道，「我有一次搭飛機去葡萄牙，飛機因為輪子出不來一直無法著陸，在空中上上下下。飛機上的人們非常驚慌，但我想，『我又能做些什麼呢？』如果我什麼都做不了，那就只能經歷下去了。死了就死了。但是最終我們沒有死。飛機著陸了。」

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ENGLISH VERSION

Listen to the Mix created by Bungalovv for HKCR

Touring overseas puts you in precarious situations—SIM card that doesn’t work, payment methods that get declined, complex visa application processes entangled with geopolitical complexities. Pablo Betas, who releases music under the alias Bungalovv, however, knows precarity well even before taking on the three-month long tour in Asia. Having lived amid the perpetually precarious economic and political climate in Argentina and worked as a migrant worker in the creative field in Berlin for the past few years, he has formed a deep relationship with precarity. His story is one that negotiates precarity with the consistent act of creating.

Interview by Anlin Liang

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The interview was conducted in Guangzhou, China. I hosted an event at the same venue where Pablo played a small free party the day after. The police showed up on both days saying we were being too loud, despite the fact that the venue wasn’t near any residential buildings. Luckily it was only some mild warning that didn’t cause any substantial trouble.

I moved back to China from London last summer. Within the span of a little bit over a year, I witnessed several venues in Guangzhou—whether it was a club or a multi-functional DIY space—opening and closing. Several of my friends who were club workers are still owed wages till this day; delayed gig payments are not unusual either, but of course this sort of treatment is reserved mainly for small local acts.

Local artists sometimes talk to each other about the unfair treatments. Local artists also talk about the discrepancy in treatments received by local artists and international artists. It’s almost a consensus that a lot of the time local artists put in more effort and play better sets but receive much less financial compensation and opportunities than international artists. So naturally, when Pablo mentioned to me how during his tour, certain promoters paid international acts like himself at the expense of local artists when we met, I was caught off guard and almost felt grateful that someone said it. In general, Pablo struck me as someone who’s conscious about the imbalance in power dynamics.

In a 2018 interview, Pablo mentioned that TRRUENO (the name comes from “trueno”, which means “thunder” in Spanish), the collective he formed with several artists in Buenos Aires, were born out of political and economic and cultural necessities. There’s another interview with TRRUENO members in which the dire economic situation and police violence were cited as obstacles to organizing events in Buenos Aires. I asked Pablo to give me more details on what the situation was like.

“In Argentina, you have a left wing government and then right wing, left, right, and they are all trying to dissolve the things the previous government did…you can never create something because they are destroying everything all the time.” Under the left wing government of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, TRRUENO received opportunities to organize workshops and play at museums and were even interviewed for a main local newspaper. But even during that time, the city of Buenos Aires was also governed by the future right wing president Mauricio Macri. Macri created his own police in the city. They were always checking on the venues, looking for things (for example, the measurements of the space) that could potentially threaten to close down the venues, fining the venues again and again, and often had to be bribed away with alcohol or the money from the tickets sold.

According to a THUMP article, the prohibitive regulation that sought to restrict nightlife in Argentina started after a fire broke out at the República Cromañón nightclub in 2004 that killed 194 people, but the punitive measures targeted mostly small DIY parties instead of larger events. Pablo said that the line-ups of the events always needed to include bands along with electronic music acts; a drum set or a guitar amp at the venue could deter the police from harassing the event. It was mostly because of the regulation costs: it was more accessible for a small DIY venue—if they want to enter in the legal process and register the venue—to be registered as a “band venue” rather than a “club” one. “When the government changed, they were trying to chase all the small venues to try to shut them down, and to put fines if people were dancing, if there was electronic music going on,” Pablo said. At some point, some venues would put up posters saying “you cannot dance here.” Venues also kept closing down.

Being able to claim your own space and do whatever you find fun in that space is inherently political, but were the political implications of playing music or hosting events romanticized? Pablo didn’t think so. “This sounds somewhat cliché, but coming from a noise and punk background, I think that in the underground music environment it is full of minorities who want to be heard and connect as well with others. Although many times the club is one of the main outputs, it is probably not the best one or the one we choose. In Argentina, and throughout Latin America, music is quite politicized. I remember in many cases at HiedraH Club de Baile parties they have taken the streets of Buenos Aires or they have played audios of injustices that were happening in the country and that the mass media decided to omit.”

The first thing Pablo did after we sat down for the interview was to demonstrate his creative process in FL Studio. He dragged some Cumbia drum samples, chopped them, rearranged them in different ways, and put effects on them, and manipulated the sounds of individual samples. In just a few seconds, several tracks are stacked on top of each other—Pablo admitted to be a more chaotic type when it comes to arranging samples and sounds, and for him, the ease and directness of the drag and drop approach in FL Studio (without having to worry about the samples needing to be on the same track) appealed to his love for video games: he used to play a lot of video games during his teenage years, and around the same time he got into FL Studio and discovered the possibility of using audio files as samples although he didn’t know what sampling was. He started doing basic tracks with sounds from video games and his first electronic music projects were mostly 8-bit music.

Pablo also admitted that he was not too heavy on the technical side because he didn’t find it joyful. But he did learn things like mixing techniques mainly by sitting with his friends who were more into the technical aspects of music making, and listening to them explain things. He stressed the importance of having other people’s assistance and perspectives in creating music. “I actually hate the idea of an electronic musician or a producer that knows everything and it’s one person band this kind of thing. Because I think there are always a lot of people involved in the process; it also makes the music even more interesting and rich at some point.”

“I actually hate the idea of an electronic musician or a producer that knows everything and it’s one person band this kind of thing. Because I think there are always a lot of people involved in the process; it also makes the music even more interesting and rich at some point.”

I am always fascinated with people who are aware of the possibility of creating music with found/recorded sounds—one of my friends who does this has a Pierre Schaeffer poster on his door. Pablo would use a lot of the sounds he records himself as well. I asked Pablo how he came to have the ideas of recording sounds, and the reason turned out to be very simple: growing up, being part of the DIY punk scene and always playing in bands, he was always prepared to record something, an idea of a song, for example. He used to do this with a cassette recorder, then switched to a digital one later, and now on his phone. He loves sounds—the sound of the keys rattling, the sound of his chains dropping on the table, or even the beep sound on the intercom; all these are interesting and recording-worthy to him.
Pablo’s involvement in bands and his love for guitar music—he still always listened to My Bloody Valentine, The Jesus and Mary Chain and Deftones, and his current favourite band is Duster—also informed his later projects and connected him with the Deconstructed Club sound, the sound associated with an experimental undertone. “Since I was always playing the guitar in bands, I was always very into effects and doing noisy things, and I was always going to see noise projects.” After getting into a car accident in 2016, he reopened FL Studio and found himself making a similar “noise”. At first he thought it was going to be difficult to achieve those sounds in a DAW, but then he realized the effects have exactly the same parameters as the pedals, and it clicked for him that he could do things similar to what he could do with the guitar; it just didn’t sound like guitar and became a totally different instrument. The club setting wasn’t his primary reference point for making music at that time, it was more about experimenting with sounds in his own way. Gradually, however, he found that people were dancing when he and his friends played music in Buenos Aires—the kind of music would be most commonly described as the “Witch House” or “Electroclash” or simply “Experimental” today. “Maybe the club thing was starting more that way, I think. But it always was super experimental. Our audience were also the people that were going to noise projects.”

Charlie Juarez, the owner of the Mexican label Infinite Machine, gave Pablo an extra push in producing more percussion-oriented/“clubby” music when he asked Pablo to make an album, instead of an EP, for the label. “He told me to try a different kind of structure, because all my previous tracks were on the cinematic side. I always started with introducing some sounds, adding more gradually, and at the end of the track, all the sounds combined together into something and then dissolved. Always the same structure…So I started to explore different structures, like starting the track with a ‘bang’, with a kick. I got really into that, and made 14 different demos for it.” Six of the demos made it into Donde Hubo Fuego, and on the other hand, a lot of the ideas in this process were put away in the hard drive—“they were just experiments.”

“The different concept with electronic music is,” Pablo said, reflecting on the process, “that you start a track recording it and then you need to figure out how to play that thing live, whereas you would make so many rehearsals before going to a studio recording with a band and you already know how to play it. So sometimes you just have a lot of potential tracks that are just exercises or improv and their future definitely depends on your artistic curation.”

Pablo has been making music his whole life, but he didn’t put any of his creations out to the world at first because of one common damning factor for artists: perfectionism. That car accident in 2016 eventually changed everything—he was hit by a car as he was about to leave a shady company he worked for. The broken healthcare system left him with a fractured skull without being treated for a whole day, and then he went through heavy medication without surgery because that would mean no hearing on the left ear forever. His hearing in the left ear still hasn’t been fully recovered; he described it as having a low pass filter or living under water all the time.

This unfortunate encounter with the fragility of life actually pulled him out of hesitation and insecurity. “If I died, all the tracks I made, all my ideas, all the things I had created would never be released, and no one would know anything about it. That’s how I became more chilled with my music and started to release more stuff and play more stuff.”

While recovering from the accident, Pablo went on a trip to Berlin, and on the second night there he saw Mechatok, Lotic, Ziúr, Gil, Mobilegirl, Dinamarca…“My whole SoundCloud following is there.” Finding out people in Berlin—whose music he would play out in parties—were also playing the music he and his friends in Argentina made was a huge surprise for him.

A lot of these acts were shiny participants in the Deconstructed Club movement and Pablo was initially introduced to their music through friends like Astrosuka. The term “Deconstructed Club” seems to be getting a certain amount of hate now but Pablo didn’t seem to mind it at all. He said the movement helped many people coming from metal, experimental music and punk scenes to communicate with each other. “I think it was a reinterpretation of the music industry by many people who were angry and against the system and it was reproduced online with a very rapid effervescence. In the case of TRRUENO, the movement also helped us a lot because we began to experience our music being played in other parts of the planet. And that’s just the internet.”

Pablo became determined to move to Berlin, but it took two more years for him to move than initially planned because the Peso was losing its value during an exponential economic crisis. He had to work a lot more to save all the money needed for the visa application and the trip and living expenses in Berlin. Both in Buenos Aires and in Berlin, Pablo’s day jobs were in the visual realm. He knew from experience when one turned their passion into work for financial security, the initial curiosity and passion could quickly wear off—he used to be a VJ as well and enjoyed doing visuals for himself, but working in the media and advertisement robbed that joy away; it became really difficult for him to create for himself.

In fact, right before he took off for the Asia tour, Pablo just got out of a job on which his visa had been dependent for over three years. The company in Berlin he worked for laid off a lot of his co-workers during the pandemic and all the workload was transferred to him. It was a miserable time as he recalled, having to work long hours every day without any pay rise. A clause in the contract determined that he could not just call it quits as he might be thrown into a more precarious visa situation, so he endured the unfair treatment.

He tried to stay away from doing music as work for financial gain. Music might not bring him financial security, but to some extent it brought him mobility with more ease. “I was doing music when I was living in a very small room in my mom’s place, without money at all. I was doing it on a shitty computer. It was a very precarious situation to be honest.” But right now Pablo is touring in Asia, performing all over East and Southeast Asia, and it’s just because of the music he created. “It’s insane!” Pablo said he talked about the exact same thing with DJ Nigga Fox when they performed together in Shenzhen–both of them came from poor families, but somehow music took them to distant places they wouldn’t have been able to travel to.

His latest release on Genome 6.66Mbp, Visited by Strangers, was inspired by a painting he saw on an random Instagram account, which ended up becoming the artwork for the project. The painting was made by a Polish artist named Rafał Borcz, and it portrayed a wolf pack all coated in the bright, white moonlight walking amidst a bare and thorny forest. For Pablo, the painting evoked the sense of being alone when something strange came and, “you just have to embrace it.” The tracks were composed during the pandemic when the imminence of death and the sense of the world ending were gravely felt.

I asked Pablo if he’s got greater or lesser fear for death after his car accident, and he said he feared death more, “BUT,” he recalled, “I was on a plane to Portugal once and it failed to land and was going up and down for a while because the wheels weren’t coming out. People on the plane were panicking but I was thinking, ‘what can I do about it?’ If I can’t do anything about it, just get through it. If you die you die, but in the end we did not die. The plane landed.”

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CHINESE VERSION

Yu Chao是一位居住在倫敦的音樂藝術家，創作內容涵蓋音樂和視覺藝術領域。他善於用音樂作為媒介，並延伸其創意領域，製作動畫、攝影和電影短片等藝術作品。

目前，Yu Chao已完成了在倫敦和柏林的演出，並正籌備他預計於2024年發行的新專輯。這張專輯的首支單曲《Violence》已於十月初發布。該歌曲探討了暴力作為一種似乎天生存在於我們每個人內心的本能。儘管我們對其感到譴責並且恐懼，但在性別轉換以及不同物種之間的轉變中，我們熟知的道德界線似乎也在悄悄改變。人們一方面恐懼著會讓我們受傷害的事物，卻在心裡深處被動且不知情的狀況下迷戀著它。

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為什麼想要探討暴力呢？ 是什麼事件觸發了你對暴力的思考呢？

從很小時候，我常常反覆思考人際關係的動態，從個體互動到我們在更大社會中的角色。我想探討有關暴力的主題，這可能看起來像是對某種社會現象的斥責，但我真正的目標是鼓勵人們思考。在現代社會中，人們獲取的答案或事實似乎都很單一或簡要。如果隨機詢問街上的人對於「暴力」有什麼看法，大多數人會認為它是一種不好的事情。然而，如果我們可以私下審視某人的生活方式，我們可能會發現，雖然他們譴責暴力，但實際上他們可能在某種程度上對它是崇尚的，或只是他們只是很克制自己的想法，這並不意味著他們在撒謊；人們往往對自己在說什麼以及潛意識中為什麼思考某件事不太清楚。如果一個人表面上似乎很關心某個社會議題，但實際上對這個問題沒有深入了解，只是跟著大環境當下主流思想去發聲的話 ，那麼很容易導致盲人引領瞎子，最終為何這些事情對自己生活其實很重要的原因還是沒法搞清楚的。

我們生活中處處都有與暴力相關的事件發生，從家庭、朋友和戀人，再到我們生活中的每個角落。再談更深的話，人們實際上大多是暴力這個主題下的消費者，我們從新聞媒體或電影中，將某事物變得娛樂化、浪漫化，或著是把某個極惡放大到極致。我希望我的音樂成為一面鏡子，讓人們在思考這些事情時，多去反思自己周圍的人事物還有自己。

能描述一下你的創作過程嗎?

在音樂創作上，我喜歡每完成一個EP或專輯就去涉及其他音樂類型去創作。最開始，我大多以解構俱樂部方式去編排自己的音樂進行的方式，而現在正在準備的專輯會更多結合一些我平常聽的搖滾樂，還有我一直都很愛的古典音樂。

另外，我很愛看電影，如果我不從事音樂，很可能我會成為電影導演或攝影師。我音樂有些聲音的靈感是從看電影當中無意間得到的，完成音樂當下幾週後，我就會去著手進行其他專輯靜態照片還有MV的拍攝。通常，在我寫歌詞的當下，我就會想好自己要拍攝的畫面背景可能要什麼顏色，或是要用什麼攝像設備，畫面構圖應該如何等等… 對我來說，如果最終的創作成品無法達到腦海中的構想，我會覺得不如不要去做。我討厭做事情做得半調子，然後說服自己凡事都能容錯的態度。

你介紹自己受電影配樂影響，在你的認知裡，電影配樂帶來的是什麼樣的感覺？ 它能勾起感情嗎？ 還是說它充當的是一層質感？

我看的很多電影其實都沒什麼配樂，有些甚至只包含了簡單的音效和後製的環境聲音，但它依然是有感情的，只是我會比較認定勾起感情的原因主要發生於畫面本身還有故事劇情，畢竟絕大多數電影配樂都是為了服務畫面的需要。 雖然我喜歡音樂多過於電影一些，但這並沒有妨礙我在音樂創作中去探索其他我認為重要的領域。對此，我自己其實覺得很欣慰。 我的製作流程可能與電影相反，因為我是在音樂創作之後拍攝畫面，以擴展音樂內容，但這仍然使我感到高興，因為我可以在音樂實踐中追求其他我熱愛且對我很重要的東西。

請列舉在視/聽方面對你啟發最大的藝術家？

我非常喜歡奧地利導演Michael Haneke，我還記得第一次看他的電影《Benny’s Video》時的感覺。他讓我頭一次感覺到一個電影人跟我有強烈的共鳴，他把我心裡想的事情講得更深也更完整。另外，我也很喜歡加拿大導演David Cronenberg。 也許大家更熟悉他被譽為”身體恐怖大師”的一面，他創作了許多令人不適的畫面。但在他的其他作品中，尤其是一些不太為人所知的作品裡，你可以看到很深刻地他對人性持悲觀態度，他在好幾十年前就展現了在科技的掌控之下，人類是如此容易被煽動、操縱，且他用非常先鋒的形式去敘說他的故事。

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Yu Chao 的最新單曲 Violence 已在本月7日推出，收聽。

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ENGLISH VERSION

Yu Chao is a visual artist and musician based in London. Music is his media from which he extends his creativity even further to the realm of animation, photography and shorts.

Yu Chao has finished performing in London and Berlin and is preparing for his upcoming new album, expected to be released in 2024. The first single off the album, ‘Violence’, is released at the beginning of October. The song discusses violence as a basic instinct within all of us—although we denounce it and fear it, somehow the moral boundaries we are so familiar with appear to be quietly morphing amidst the shifting in gender and between different species. On the one hand, we fear the thing that causes harm, but deep down we are fascinated with it, passively and inadvertently.

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Why do you want to talk about violence? What prompted you to think and talk about it?

I have been thinking about the dynamics within human relationships—whether it’s about interpersonal relationships or about our role in a bigger society—since I was really young. My discussion of violence might seem like a condemnation of a certain societal phenomenon, but what I’m really trying to do here is to encourage people to think. In modern society, the answers or facts people acquire seem rather one-dimensional or brief. If you were to randomly ask people on the street about their views on violence, most would likely consider it a bad thing. However, if we could privately examine someone’s lifestyle, we might discover that while they condemn violence, they may, in some way, actually endorse it, or
they may simply be restraining their thoughts. This doesn’t necessarily mean they are lying; people often aren’t very clear about what they are saying and why they are subconsciously thinking about something. If someone appears to be deeply concerned about a certain social issue on the surface but, in reality, lacks a deep understanding of the issue and is merely echoing the prevailing thoughts of the moment, it would easily be the blind leading the blind. Ultimately, they may still struggle to understand why these things are important to their lives.

Violence exists everywhere in our lives, from within families, among friends and romantic partners, to every corner of our daily existence. Going deeper, most people are actually consumers of violence. We often transform something into entertainment, romanticize it, or exaggerate evil to the extreme, through news outlets or movies. I try to be more like a mirror in my music, and I hope people could reflect more on what’s going on around them as well as on themselves.

Could you describe your creative process?

In terms of creating music, I like to explore different genres after completing each EP or album. At the beginning I like to arrange my music in the style of Deconstructed Club music. But the upcoming album will incorporate more elements from rock music, which I regularly listen to, as well as classical music, which I’ve always loved.

What’s more, I love watching films. If I’m not making music, I might become a film director or photograher. Some of the sounds in my music are inspired, spontaneously, by the films I’ve watched. I would start the photoshoot and shooting the music videos for my album a few weeks after finishing my music. I usually have a clear idea of the visuals I want already while I am writing my lyrics, including the background colours, the choice of equipment, and the compositions, among others. For me, if the final creative product doesn’t match the vision I have in my mind, I’d rather not do it. I would not do things half-heartedly and tell myself that
all are acceptable after the fact.

You said you were influenced by music in films. In what way does music in films work for you? Does it induce emotions? Or does it function as a layer of texture?

A lot of the films I’ve watched aren’t really accompanied by much music; some of them might even contain simple sound effects and post-production ambient sounds only. Still, these sounds convey emotions to me. It’s just that I tend to attribute the emotional impact more to
the visuals and the stories, since the vast majority of film scores are primarily to serve the visuals. Although I like music better than films, I’m still exploring the areas I consider important while creating music. In fact I’m quite happy about this. My creative process might be the opposite of filmmaking because I shoot the visuals after making the music, so as to
expand upon the music. Nonetheless, this brings me joy because it allows me to pursue other things that I’m passionate about and that are important to me in the musical practice.

Please list some of the artists who inspire you the most in the audio/visual realm.

I’m a huge fan of the Austrian filmmaker Michael Haneke. I still remember how I felt watching his film, Benny’s Video, for the first time. It was the first time I felt such a strong connection with a filmmaker; he expressed what’s going on in my mind but with more depth and more thoroughly. I also love David Cronenberg, the Canadian director. Perhaps most people know him as the ‘master of body horror’, as he has created many unsettling scenes. But in his other works, especially the lesser-known ones, you could see his profound pessimism about human nature. He already showed, decades ago, that human beings are easily swayed and manipulated under the control of technology. And he told his stories in such avant-garde
forms.

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Yu Chao’s single ‘Violence’ is out on 7th October , listen.

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CHINESE VERSION
去年九月，當Organ Tapes在Hackney Wick的Colour Factory表演時，他在自己的歌之間插播了一首破碎失真的《春天裡》，這是中國搖滾音樂人汪峰知名度最高的歌之一。我站在觀眾之間，在那個瞬間彷佛被揍了一拳—這首歌不是單純為我帶來了回憶，而是提醒著我自己確實擁有這樣的回憶。非常稀有的一個瞬間。那個時候算起來我已經到英國兩年了，因為疫情的緣故一次都沒有見過我的家人，而Organ Tapes也處在類似的境況中。就在那個瞬間，我意識到這樣一首我從未出於想要聽而聽的歌，實際上是我熟悉的一部分。上一次這樣的事情發生在我身上，是四年前，我在MoMA的影院裡看米開朗基羅·安東尼奧尼的紀錄片《中國》。裡面有一幕拍的是在南京市的十幾個小孩邊唱著《我們是共產主義接班人》—一首很多在中國長大的人都要在小學學唱的歌—邊齊步行進在街道上。我當時昏昏欲睡，但在聽到歌唱聲的瞬間立刻醒來。我望向我的朋友，目瞪口呆—這首歌在我的回憶裡埋藏得如此之深，在離家幾千裡外聽到的時候，我才認識到自己對這首歌熟稔於心。似乎只有當這些聲音被放置于另外的時空中，不再是集體環境聲中的一部分時，它們才成為了我固有的一部分，不管我是否想要承認。

Organ Tapes今年新專輯發行前，我終於採訪到他。他的音樂對我來說一直都是跟鄉愁聯繫起來的，而當我困在此時此地看著家那邊發生的事情，聽著他的新專輯，這種感覺愈發強烈了。2017年，因上海線上音樂平台WOOOZY無解音樂網的介紹，我初次接觸到他的EP， Words Fall to the Ground；幾年間我零零星星地聽了他的其他音樂，但是不知為何直到來了倫敦我才知道他也用中文唱歌。去年8月，DJ Pitch 和 Organ Tapes 在 Edited Arts 的活動末尾表演了『K1. 不明白』，這首歌出自2015年發行的 Tobago Tracks Volume 4: China 。在幾乎可說是狂熱的如機關槍/打字機一樣的層層打擊樂之上，是充滿感情，讓人難以忘懷的抓耳旋律。Organ Tapes用中文重複唱道，『我就在這一直唱』—Organ Tapes一直在唱，唱著那無人問津的歌謠。


訪問：梁安琳 Anlin Liang

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你應該不介意別人說你的音樂聽起來跟某些音樂人的類似？

我並不介意，因為人們總會這樣說。人們都是這樣談論音樂的，不是嗎？


那我就說了—我喜歡你的新專輯原因之一就是因為我在聆聽的時候可以拾起一些回憶裡的聲音。像『Line (with Glasear)』和『忘了一切 (with Munni)』這些歌裡的那種hi-hat聲讓我想起了像Arab Strap，Bedhead還有Codeine這樣的慢核樂隊—但我指的不是他們某首特定的歌。

是的，我很喜歡那類音樂。我覺得在我更年輕的時候做的很多音樂聽起來很像那類樂隊，不是一模一樣，但在某種程度上像。我告訴你吧，我過去曾經試圖模仿的一個樂隊是Duster。我最近在Bandcamp上放出來的一首歌是我在19歲左右時跟朋友Deva做的。基本上就是那個時候我想做首和Duster的音樂類似的歌，但通常我不是這樣做音樂的。


你過去有在樂隊裡待過嗎？還是說你一向都是自己做音樂的？

我有加入過一些樂隊，但是從來沒有待很久。我上大學的時候和現在Genome 6.66Mbp的運營者之一noctilucents曾在同一個硬核樂隊裡，我們做過很精彩的一場演出。他是主唱。這個樂隊真的很棒，但只演了一場，非常短命。


你的新專輯是關於什麼的？

這些歌是我在2019年年末—有些甚至更早—然後還有2020年做的。大部分是在那個時間段做的歌，最終我覺得可以做成一張專輯。我很難說明這張專輯是跟什麽有關的，因為我覺得它們自身傳達的比我能提供的任何解釋都要好。


我很多時候沒法聽清你歌裡面的歌詞，我知道你是故意這樣唱歌的…

說實話我現在已經不再是刻意這樣去唱的了，我只是自然而然地傾向於這麼唱。但當我聽回自己的歌時，大多數時候我能聽出來自己在說些什麼，我認識的一些人現在也許能更容易聽清我的歌詞了。在這張專輯裡我的歌詞還是很好分辨的，不過也許有的人不同意。


我倒是知道你在『Li Bu Kai』裡唱的是什麼—『生命就像一條大河』。

『Li Bu Kai』大概挺難讓人聽懂的，至少是除了這句以外的其他部分吧。我那個時候絕對是因為害羞所以唱得更含混。你引用的歌詞出自汪峰的《飛得更高》。


你喜歡汪峰？

我的確很喜歡汪峰。


提到汪峰，你的專輯標題《唱著那無人問津的歌謠》是汪峰《春天裡》的一句歌詞。你對那首歌是什麼感受？

我覺得這是一支傑作，一首很好很好的歌。


我知道我的父母喜歡這首歌，但我卻沒那麼喜歡。我覺得這是他們那代人的音樂。

我爸大概會認為那是年輕人的音樂！


汪峰在歌裡回憶他一無所有且孤身一人的日子，那時候沒有人知道他的音樂，但他是作為一個功成名就者來唱的。所以我覺得應該是經歷了那樣的社會流動的一代人才能與這首歌產生共鳴。我覺得很多跟我一樣年紀的，二十多歲的人，的確會喜歡這首歌，但我不會覺得這首歌很酷。

這是個有趣的觀點。我理解他在文化中的地位類似U2在英國的地位，哈。我明白，然而我仍喜歡這首歌。


為什麼這句歌詞對你來說尤為突出？

我覺得從某種程度上來講這句歌詞只是在談音樂。他講的是他過去跟自己的音樂之間的關係，講的是單純為了音樂而做音樂。我能感同身受。甚至不是從懷舊的角度來說的，而是覺得這是一種純粹而美好的情感，講出了音樂對我的意義，在我心底裡意味著什麼。我自己怎麼看待歌曲中的敘事—敘事者的『成功』以及回顧他成名前『更單純』的生活—在此無關要緊。但《春天裡》作為一首我孩童時期在超市里或者電視上聽到很多次的歌，還有一層情感價值。這是一首來自青春的歌，所以從這個角度來講它是懷舊的，但並不是說我跟歌曲敘事者抒發的那種懷舊感產生連結。


你聽了很多汪峰的歌嗎？

我聽了他很多的歌，然後挑出了我喜歡的那些。有一些歌我記得是小時候就喜歡的，又或者在那時甚至還算不上喜歡的。但是它們對我來說很親切，如今經過時間的洗禮，它們的意義又加深了。

你同意這張專輯是從你過去有著更多Dancehall/Afrobeat/Soundcloud Rap元素的音樂過渡到更具搖滾風格的音樂這樣的說法嗎？

人們也許會這樣看，但是新專輯上的音樂更像是我17歲時做的音樂。我是彈著結他長大的，過去幾年有些忽視，但我現在真的有重新投入彈結他。所以從某方面來講我做的感覺並不是什麼特別新的東西。我是隨時隨地想做什麼就做什麼吧。我也不覺得Dancehall/Afrobeat或者『Soundcloud Rap』這些標籤能準確描述我至今發過的作品，它們通常是在記者寫作時出於行銷目的使用的詞彙，又或者是因為與我關聯的人而被加到我頭上。現在還有人會把我當作或把我寫成是俱樂部製作人，又或者是那類搞Soundcloud Hyperpop說唱的『雇傭人聲』，就因為我在那個場景裡出現過，我對此無法理解。你得無視我做過的很多東西才能給我貼上這樣的標籤。我不同意這樣的說法，我也不會就因為我重拾結他而說這是『我的搖滾專輯』。我不希望我的專輯以這樣的方式被消化，我寧可不去描述它。


這張專輯上有一首歌叫『Never Heard』，我覺得這首歌很有意思，貝斯和人聲都是清晰的，但是結他器樂應該是現場收音？

對的，結他是現場收音，然後被編輯和循環，正是因為這樣聽起來一塌糊塗。DAW是很好，但是『真實的』聲音擁有的豐富層次是無可比擬的。


The Microphones有首叫『Sand』的歌，其中有一種器樂聽起來也是挺模糊的，應該也是那個器樂的現場收音。

他錄製音樂的方式從整體上講對年輕時候的我有很大的影響。我最初開始錄製音樂的時候試圖模仿的就是他的方法。他做的很多東西裡面都有用有趣的方式疊加器樂或是設置聲場。他製作音樂的方式並不隨眾…我知道尤其是現在YouTube上有各種教程，音樂製作的行業標準範本也是唾手可及，但是我寧可通過在錄製音樂時進行不同形式的DIY實驗而發展出自己的一套方法。

我從未真正坐定定靠教程去學錄音技巧或是學軟體，我就是動手去做。但在我一開始做音樂，進行實驗時，我真的會去嘗試他調整結他聲場的方式，比方說把兩個不同的結他音軌調整到聲場兩極。我還會用鼓棒曲敲房間裡的燈，錄下來，然後敲枕頭，又錄下來，然後通過設置聲場以及用不同的方式調整EQ來得到打擊樂的效果—我並不是說他就是這樣做音樂的，但那是我學習如何錄製音樂的開端，在這之後我就一直用著類似的方法。我基本不看什麼教程，因為大部分時候我都不想通過那種方式去學音樂製作。

『我知道尤其是現在YouTube上有各種教程，音樂製作的行業標準範本也是唾手可及，但是我寧可通過在錄製音樂時進行不同形式的DIY實驗而發展出自己的一套方法。』

除了Phil Elverum以外，你還有哪些結他偶像？

Sonic Youth, Harry Pussy的Bill Orcutt, Duster, Loren Connors, Jimi Hendrix, The Durutti Column的Vini Reilly。很多的藍調結他，因為我的結他老師是個藍調迷，還有帶噪音的音樂，裡面的結他聽起來像別的東西。


我在聽你的新專輯的時候我的確也想起了The Durutti Column—我覺得他用著流行歌的框架，但很多時候把音樂做得有點怪。

我太樂意自己被比作他了，因為我很喜歡The Durutti Column。我猜我懂你的意思—我能跟他音樂還有他把各種元素結合在一起的方式產生共鳴，倒不是指他的旋律跟和絃，而是他使用的聲音以及他作曲裡某種特別的感性。


我們之前聊過你在『Li Bu Kai』裡面取樣了電影《小武》裡面的聲音*；你在這張專輯裡有沒有進行更多的電影取樣？

開頭的歌有一個紀錄片的取樣，但這張專輯上的大部分取樣，像錄音和環境聲都是我自己錄的—其中有來自2013-2015年，特別舊的錄音。


電影裡的聲音對你做音樂有影響嗎？

我取樣《小武》是因為我很喜歡那部電影裡的聲音。電影裡的聲音做得是真的真的很好。光聽電影的聲軌你都能感覺到這是部好電影。我也很欣賞電影中做得好的聲音設計。

我從未有意識地思考過電影對我的影響，但是你這麼一說，我絕對可以看到其中的相似之處。每當你聽到電影裡的音樂，劇情內的聲音和非劇情內的聲音結合在一起，這在錄製音樂裡並不常見，但我的很多音樂都是這樣做的。所以也許我在潛意識裡有受到影響吧。

Organ Tapes 於worldwide unlimited推出的全長專輯 《唱着那无人问津的歌谣》（Chang Zhe Na Wu Ren Wen Jin De Ge Yao） 在本月28日推出，購買/收聽。

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*這首歌的末尾有《小武》的取樣—但那個對話實際上又是來自片中主角看的另一部電影。

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ENGLISH VERSION

When Organ Tapes performed at Hackney Wick’s Colour Factory last September, he played a chopped up, distorted version of ‘Chun Tian Li (In Spring)’, one of the most well-known songs by the Chinese rock musician Wang Feng, between his own songs. I stood watching and it was one of those rare moments when something didn’t simply ‘bring back’ to me the memories but punched me in the face and reminded me that I HAVE such memories. Having been in the UK for around two years by that time without seeing my family in China once due to the pandemic, similar situation Organ Tapes was in, it was at that moment I realized a song I never really listened to out of want was a familiar part of me. Last time such thing happened to me was four years ago, I sat in the cinema of MoMA watching Michelangelo Antonioni’s documentary film Chung Kuo—Cina (China). There was a scene where around a dozen of children in the city of Nanjing marched down a street while singing ‘Wo Men Shi Gong Chan Zhu Yi Jie Ban Ren (We are the Successors of Communism)’, a song that a lot of people grew up in China needed to learn in primary school. I was on the brink of falling asleep but sobered up immediately upon hearing the singing. I turned to my friend, dumbfounded—this song was buried so deep in my memories that I only registered I knew this song by heart when I heard it thousands of miles away from home. It seems as though when these sounds were displaced and no longer part of the collective environmental sounds that they became intrinsic to me, whether I’d like to admit it or not.

Prior to Organ Tape’s album release this year, I did an interview with him at last. To me, Organ Tapes’ music has always been associated with nostalgia, and it becomes more so as I listen to his new album, while watching what’s going on at home stuck in this time and space. I first became aware of his EP Words Fall to Ground in 2017, thanks to the introduction by the Shanghai-based online music publication WOOOZY. I then sporadically listened to his other music over the years but somehow didn’t know that he sings in Chinese until I came to London. In August last year, DJ Pitch and Organ Tapes performed ‘K1. 不明白’ from the 2015 release Tobago Tracks Volume 4: China at the end of the Edited Arts event. It’s a song with hauntingly catchy and emotional melody against the almost delirious layers of machine gun/typewriter-like percussion sounds. Organ Tapes sang repeatedly in Chinese, ‘Wo jiu zai zhe yi zhi chang (I keep singing here)’: Organ Tapes keeps singing, singing songs that no one asks about, chang zhe na wu ren wen jin de ge yao.


Interview by Anlin Liang

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I don’t think you mind other people saying that your music sounds like certain artists?

I don’t mind, no, because people inevitably say that. That’s what people do about music, don’t they?


I’m gonna say it—one of the reasons why I like your new album is because I can pick up a lot of sounds from my memories while listening to it. Songs like ‘Line (with Glasear)’ and ‘忘了一切 (with Munni)’ have that particular hi-hat sound that remind me of slowcore bands like Arab Strap, Bedhead and Codeine—not any of their songs in particular though.

Yeah, I love that kind of music for sure. I think a lot of music I made when I was a lot younger sounded a lot like those kind of bands, not exactly, but in a way. I’ll tell you that one band I used to try and copy when I was younger is Duster. There’s a song I put out on Bandcamp recently from when I was 19 or something. I made it with my friend Deva. I think it was pretty much I wanted to make a song that was similar to Duster but that’s not normally the way I make music.


Were you in a band? Or do you always make music on your own?

I’ve been in bands in my life, but never for that long. I played in a hardcore band in uni with noctilucents who now co-runs Genome 6.66Mbp and we did one awesome gig. He was the singer. It was really sick but with only one gig and short lived.


What is your new album about?

These are the songs that I made during late 2019, some of them even earlier, and then 2020. Songs that I made in that period mostly, and then eventually I felt they were an album. It’s hard for me to say what it’s about because I just think that they speak better for themselves than any explanation of what they’re about that I can give.


I can’t really hear a lot of lyrics in your songs, I know you do it sort of on purpose with your way of singing…

It’s not really on purpose anymore to be honest. That’s just naturally how I feel inclined to sing. But when I listen to it I can hear most of what I’m saying, and I think certain people I know hear my music a lot clearer lyrically now, maybe. I think the lyrics are fairly discernible in a lot of this album, but maybe people won’t necessarily agree.


I do know what you sing in ‘Li Bu Kai’ though—‘Sheng ming jiu xiang yi tiao da he (Life is like a river)’.

‘Li Bu Kai’ is probably quite hard to understand, or the other bits are at least. I would definitely more overtly slur my vocals back then out of shyness. The lyrics you quoted are from Wang Feng’s ‘Fei De Geng Gao (Fly Higher)’.


You like Wang Feng?

I do like Wang Feng a lot, yeah.


Talking about Wang Feng, the title of the album Chang Zhe Na Wu Ren Wen Jin De Ge Yao is a line from Wang Feng’s ‘Chun Tian Li’. What do you feel about this song?

I think this song is a masterpiece, it’s a really really good song.


I know my parents like this song, but I can’t seem to like it. It’s their generation’s music I think.

My dad would probably view it as young people’s music still!


Wang Feng sings about the time when he had nothing and was all alone and no one knew his music, but he sings it as a man who’s made it. So I think it resonates with the generation that experienced that social mobility. I believe a lot of people my age, who are in their early twenties, indeed like this song, but I just don’t see this song as cool.

Yeah that’s an interesting perspective on it. I understand his place in culture as something akin to U2 in the UK, ha. I understand that, I nevertheless still like it.


Why does that line specifically stand out to you?

I think it’s just talking about music in a way. He’s talking about the relationship that he used to have to his music, about doing it for its own sake. And I think it resonates. Not in a nostalgic sense even, just in a sense of being a pure and nice sentiment that speaks to what music means, or what its significance is, at heart. It’s not really about my personal relation to the narrative of the song by any means, in the sense that the narrator has ‘made it’ and looks back on his ‘simpler’ pre-fame life. But ‘Chun Tian Li’ has a sentimental value to me as a song that I heard a lot when I was a kid as well, in supermarkets or on TV. It’s a song from youth, so in that sense it’s nostalgic, but not in the sense of me relating to the specific nostalgia of the song’s narrator.


Have you listened to a lot of Wang Feng’s music?

I have gone through a bunch of his music and picked out the songs that I like. There are certain songs I remember when I was young that I liked, or not even necessarily liked back then. But they’re familiar to me, and now they’ve accrued meaning in time.

Would you agree this album is a transition from your previous music with more Dancehall, Afrobeat, and Soundcloud Rap elements to one with a more Rock aesthetic?

People might perceive it as such, but this is more like the music that I used to make when I was 17. I grew up playing guitar and I’ve really gotten back into the act of playing itself in a way I’d neglected in the past few years. So it doesn’t really feel like something new in a way. I just make what I feel like making at any given time, I suppose. I don’t agree that my output thus far can be described accurately as Dancehall/Afrobeat or ‘Soundcloud Rap’ either, really, all the attachment of those terms to my work was usually just for marketing purposes when journalists had to write about it, or else they were pinned onto me by association. I still get people writing or coming up to me as if I’m either a club producer or a ‘vocalist-for-hire’ Soundcloud Hyperpop rapper type or something because I came up in that scene, and I don’t really understand it. I think you have to have ignored or missed a lot of what I’ve made to arrive at that conclusion. I don’t agree with it, in the same way that I don’t want to present this as ‘my rock album’ because I’ve picked up the guitar again. I don’t really want my album to be instantly digestible in that way and I’d rather let it speak for itself.


There’s a song on this album, ‘Never Heard’, I find it very interesting with the clear bass and vocal and the guitar instrumental that’s supposedly a field recording?

Yeah, the guitar is a field recording, and then edited and looped. That’s why it sounds so fucked up. DAWs are cool but the richness of ‘real’ sound is unmatched.


The Microphones has a song called ‘Sand’, where one of the instruments sound quite blurry, it’s probably a field recording of that instrument as well.

In general, the way that he records music had really influenced me when I was a kid. That was the kind of approach that I tried to mimic when I started recording music for the first time. A lot of his stuff would have interesting ways of layering different instruments or panning things. He has a kind of approach to production that’s not really following…especially now because I know there are YouTube tutorials and the template for an industry standard way of producing music widely available, but I’d rather develop my own practice through different forms of DIY experimentation with the recording process.

I’ve never really sat down and learned recording techniques or software through tutorials, I just make stuff. But when I first started making stuff and experimenting with making music, I would literally try and do what he did with the panning of guitars, like hard panning two different guitar tracks each side. And also hitting the lamp in my room with a drum stick and recording that and then hitting a pillow and recording that, and then panning them and EQing in different ways to have percussive sounds. Not that he was making music exactly like that, but that was the beginning of me learning how to record music and then I just kept a similar approach. I don’t really ever watch any tutorial videos because I don’t care to really learn music production that way most of the time.

‘I know there are YouTube tutorials and the template for an industry standard way of producing music widely available, but I’d rather develop my own practice through different forms of DIY experimentation with the recording process.’

Who are your guitar heroes, apart from Phil Elverum?

Sonic Youth, Bill Orcutt of Harry Pussy, Duster, Loren Connors, Jimi Hendrix, Vini Reilly of The Durutti Column. Lots of blues rock guitar playing because my guitar teacher was a blues head, and noisy stuff in which the guitar sounds like something else.


When I was listening to your new album I indeed thought of The Durutti Column as well—I think he used the pop song framework but made it a bit off a lot of the times.

I’m perfectly happy to be compared to him because I love The Durutti Column. I guess I understand what you mean though—I think I can relate to the way his music sounds and the way elements are put together, not so much the melodies and chords, but the sounds he uses and certain compositional sensibilities.


We talked about you sampling sounds in the film Xiao Wu in your song ‘Li Bu Kai’ before*; have you done more cinema sampling in this album?

The introduction is a sample from a documentary, but most of the samples on this album like recording sounds, environmental sounds are things I recorded – some of them are really old recordings from like 2013-2015.


Do sounds in cinema influence the way you make your music?

I sampled Xiao Wu because of how much I love the sound in that film. The sound was really, really well done. It’s almost like you could listen to the audio track and still think it was good. And I do appreciate the sound design of films if it’s all good.

I never thought of cinema influence like that consciously, but now that you mentioned it, there is definitely a parallel. Anytime you hear music in a film, there’s the diegetic and non-diegetic sound at once commingling, which is something that perhaps you don’t get in recorded music all the time, but I think that a lot of my music likes to do that. So maybe it’s subconsciously influential.

Organ Tapes’ LP 唱着那无人问津的歌谣 (Chang Zhe Na Wu Ren Wen Jin De Ge Yao) is out on 28th April 2022 via worldwide unlimited, buy/listen.

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*The ending of the song contains a sample from Xiao Wu—it’s actually an exchange from another film that the protagonist went to see.

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CHINESE VERSION
「WHY RADIO？」是 HKCR 由主持人間訪談系列，旨在探討各位創作人於當下，堅持做電台節目的源由和意義。

A: Anlin
G: Gribs

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疫情之後，你感覺跟自己身處的「場景」是疏離了還是更加緊密連結了？

A：我其實感到更強的連結了。我在封城期間在網上認識了更多的人，這似乎是件好事。我有個朋友在2019年的時候教我和其他幾個朋友學習怎麼用DJ控制器。當時我只認識這些朋友，混的也是某些特定風格的音樂，但我對電子舞曲的喜好在這幾年裡變化很大。封鎖期間我在社交媒體上認識了更多有類似音樂喜好的人。

G:我的體驗是相反的，因為我刪除了自己的社交媒體，這單純是因為我不再享受使用社交媒體了。也是因為這樣，我很多時候不知道別人有演出或者是發行了新的音樂，但是目前為止這樣的做法還是值得的，我得而靜下心來。疫情前到俱樂部玩時的偶遇或者不斷結識新的人（現在才！）重新開始發生，我的心情因此得到了很大的改善，這樣的感受還挺震撼的。我重新開始發郵件簡報，告訴大家我現在在做什麼，人們發來體貼的回復也鼓勵了我。所以從某些方面來講我還是感覺到緊密的連結的！


有的人或許會說現在電臺太多餘，『太多電臺mix了！』在當下，電臺的價值在哪裡？

A：有的時候我的確會覺得有太多的mix了。我知道現在很多人會直接到存檔去找他們喜歡的藝人做的mix，也許網站上的mix的數量看起來多得讓人喘不過氣。我喜歡在Radio Garden這樣的平臺上收聽隨便哪個電臺，看看能不能聽到些好的音樂；這樣樂趣更大。但是很多時候我的確會到存檔處找某個特定的節目。我覺得存檔還是必要的。（注：回頭看我並沒有真正回答問題！）

G：就製作電臺節目這點來講，多年過後我回頭聽以前跟朋友一起錄過的舊電臺節目，才意識到這些節目是（意外的！）時間膠囊，裡面藏著我們玩耍的地點，我當時學到的東西，我當時正在讀的書，我喜歡的人…就因為這個原因，每個月拿出一小時來用聲音標記時間總是很值得的事情。我無法想像十年，十五年後回頭聽這些節目會是怎樣的感受。而為聽眾，我很喜歡每月有一兩個小時被別人邀請至他們自己的「世界」裡，而且我覺得若定期收聽某個節目，長久下來，在每集節目之間，你會從主持的視角來看或聽你去聽的讀的看的其他東西。不過也許只有那些你認為一集也不能錯過的節目才會給你帶來這樣的体验。

A：你可以給我這類節目的例子嗎？

G：我愛Mobbs，ONY，KO_OL還有Mark Leckey的節目。每個月的Dead Mall Radio和Gochu World也總是能帶我踏上有趣的旅途。Mobbs特別啟發我，我推薦他的節目推薦得不能再多了。

A：你提醒了我，在我十幾歲的時候，我會製作一些受我的情緒或者我看過的電影啟發的mix。我會將它們上傳至Mixcloud，跟朋友分享。我以前聽的電臺都是父母在車上放的商業電臺。我成長的期間沒有任何的獨立電臺收聽，又或者只是我不知道而已。然而我卻會去做這些mix作自我表達。

G:你提到在車裡聽電臺這點很有趣，因為我在7歲至18歲之間每天都聽Radio One，而且只有Radio One。我記得主持人讀出我的短信，尤其記得第一次在車上的電臺上聽到The Prodigy的時候。即便那個不是什麼“地下”電臺，也沒什麼關係，因為這個電臺給我帶來了（對我而言）嶄新的音樂，讓我著迷。

『就製作電臺節目這點來講，多年過後我回頭聽以前跟朋友一起錄過的舊電臺節目，才意識到這些節目是（意外的！）時間膠囊，裡面藏著我們玩耍的地點，我當時學到的東西，我當時正在讀的書，我喜歡的人…就因為這個原因，每個月拿出一小時來用聲音標記時間總是很值得的事情。 』

這是個類似的問題—隨著音樂流媒體及點播服務等的崛起，人們的注意力平均水準直線下降，為何電臺仍受歡迎？

A: 疫情發生的時候，我在instagram上一個互關的朋友在Mixlr開了一個叫Volumelithic的電臺，我加入了。這個電臺上的主播都是他在現實生活或網上認識的人。

G: 我和我對朋友也開了個Mixlr電臺！我覺得這正是我沒有瘋掉的原因。

A: 電臺的主播們會按時間表進行播送，每週如此。在封鎖期間，這個電臺是我的一個陪伴。我頻繁收聽電臺，在聊天室裡和一小群人聊天，在隻身一人的時候這個電臺陪著我熬過了很多—我可是完全獨居了六個月。有的時候我還會為周日的播送製作舞曲mix。這個Mixlr電臺還一直在繼續，即使如今我不再那麼頻繁地收聽了。

G: Mixlr太棒了。我們也通過做這個電臺收穫了很多樂趣，也很驚訝我們得到了很好的回應—人們從世界各處打電話進電臺！我們有每週的固定聽眾，我也因此保持動力，因為我知道我需要發掘新的音樂，每週五晚進行播放。我們在客廳跟彼此分享音樂，而有人收聽並樂於其中，給予了我們很大的肯定。

A: 我猜從某種程度上來說電臺更有人情味。不管是主播還是聽眾都可以從電臺收穫很多東西。

G: 二者能夠似團隊一樣合作時是很美妙的！尤其是在做即時電臺的時候。


你在做電臺節目的時候會考慮展示不同人群嗎？

A: 我看著這個問題的時候，想到的是，你上電臺得到的曝光並不意味著你會被請去演出。展示似乎不能轉變成金錢。

G：是的！相比起請人上節目，向活動組織者推薦DJ或者向廠牌分享某位藝術家的音樂應該是更加直接的支援方式。這不意味著擁有 一個平臺，並發展以及展示你做的東西對藝術家們來說不重要，但如你所說的那樣，這不自動等同于進一步的機會。


你覺得電臺的地理位置仍重要嗎？

G：我總是很樂意聽我從前未曾聽過的DJ做一些有趣或不同尋常的東西。不管哪種方式，只要能給我帶來這樣的發現—比方說節目的策劃邀請他們在自己的城市遇見的藝術家上節目—我都十分支持。電臺上有國際主持當然是有趣的—我在香港聯合電臺上就是個國際主持電臺，這個電臺上很多其他主持也是。但是作為聽眾，我不會希望各個電臺上的本土節目消失。

A: 我跟Gavin （HKCR 主理人）討論過香港聯合電臺上的本土/國際節目分佈，他跟我說香港聯合電臺是給宅宅聽的。縱使電台存在著本地的節目，他覺得 HKCR 沒有真的很本土。我覺得正正是因為這個原因我可以為他們當寫手，即使我並不是住在香港或來自那個地方，雖然我成長於這座城市的不遠處。

G：我幾年前在美國的時候參與過一個社區電臺，這是個本土的FM電臺，在人們的車裡，商店，披薩店裡被播放。我的節目是深夜檔，每週都有很多人給我打電話，他們淩晨五點正在開咖啡館，或者是上完夜班正在開車回家。我想，如果那是個網路電臺，這些人也許還是會收聽，但是我知道收聽的人都在我身處的地方外一個較小的範圍內，並且在這麼晚的時間收聽，絕對改變了我做節目的方式。

A：我想回到前面提到電臺mix太多的問題上。這個問題之所以出現，大概是因為Gavin的關注點在網路電臺上。當你談及本地的FM社區電臺時，電臺上的節目讓人喘不過氣這樣的事情應該是不會發生的。但如果你關注了一群網路電臺並去探索它們的節目存檔，你可能會覺得很難消化。

G：任何以『網源』的形式投送到你眼前的，都是被設計成如此讓人應接不暇的，儘管偶爾我會在健康的範圍裡享受這樣的應接不暇。

『當你談及本地的FM社區電臺時，電臺上的節目讓人喘不過氣這樣的事情應該是不會發生的。但如果你關注了一群網路電臺並去探索它們的節目存檔，你可能會覺得很難消化。 』

除了香港聯合電臺以外，你心目中還有哪些「酷」的電臺呢？這些電臺有哪些突出的地方？

A：我的答案是一個叫做Radio is a Foreign Country的電臺。這個電臺的簡介裡寫著電臺播放的包括國際電臺節目，田野錄音，民族志影片，老舊唱片和磁帶等組成的片段。這個電臺上播放的聲音對我來說都很新穎。

G：Datafruits讓我讚不絕口！我特別喜歡他們會開誠佈公向他們的支持者諮詢關于電臺開發和改善的事情；電臺的設計，策劃和對音樂的真摯投入總能給我啟發。

ENGLISH VERSION

‘‘Why Radio?” is an interview series hosted by our residents, each of them contains conversations of the residents to explore the meaning of making radio shows in the present day.

A: Anlin
G: Gribs

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Are you feeling disconnected or more connected to the ‘scene’ you are at after the pandemic?

A: I actually feel more connected. I got to know more people through the internet during lockdown, and that seems like a good thing. A friend taught me and a few other friends how to use a DJ controller in 2019. Back then I only knew those friends and practiced with certain genres of music, but my taste in dance music varied considerably in the past few years. During this lockdown, I got to know more people who enjoy similar music as I do on social media.

G: I think I had the opposite experience because I deleted my social media, purely because I didn’t enjoy using it at that stage. Because of this I don’t feel like I always know when people are playing shows or putting out a new release, but it was worth it to experience some peace. The chance encounters and constantly meeting  new people that I experienced when clubbing before the pandemic has (only just!) started to return and it’s been intense to feel how much it improves my mood. I have no idea how I went without it for so long. I did restart my newsletter last year purely as a way to update people on what I’m doing and I’ve been encouraged by the thoughtful responses people have been sending me. So in some ways that felt pretty connected!


Some might say radio is redundant these days, ‘There are too many radio mix!’ What makes doing radio worthwhile these days?

A: Sometimes I do feel like there are too many mixes. I know that nowadays a lot of people will go straight to the archive to check out the mixes of certain artists they like, and maybe the number of archives on the websites makes it look overwhelming. I like tuning to whatever radio on a platform like Radio Garden and see if I can get some good music; it’s more fun this way. But a lot of the times I do end up going to the archive and search for that specific show. So I do think archive is necessary. (Note: Looking back I didn’t really answer the question!)

G: In terms of making radio, years later I’ve gone back and listened to old radio shows I recorded with friends, and realised they were (accidental!) time capsules of where we were hanging out,,  what I was learning about, the books I was reading, who I had a crush on.. it was all in there. So having an hour a month to mark time with some sound will always be worth it for me for that reason alone. I can’t imagine how it will feel to eventually listen to shows ten or fifteen years later. As a listener, I love being invited into someone else’s “zone” for an hour or two a month, and I think if you listen to a show every regularly over a long period of time you end up applying the host’s lens to things you hear (or read or watch!) in between shows. But perhaps that only comes with the shows where you never want to miss an episode.

A: Can you give me an example of this kind of shows?

G: I love Mobbs, ONY, KO_OL’s show, Mark Leckey. Dead Mall Radio and Gochu World always take me down a fun path each month. Mobbs is a particular inspiration to me, I can’t recommend his show enough.

A: You remind me of my teenage years when I would do mixes when I was inspired by my emotions or films I watched at that time. I would just upload them on mixcloud and share them with my friends. The radio I used to listen to are the commercial ones my parents put on the car. There weren’t any independent radios that I knew of when I grew up in China, or maybe I just wasn’t aware of them. Nonetheless I knew to do these mixes to sort of express myself.

G: That’s interesting that you mentioned listening to the radio in the car, as I grew up listening to Radio One and ONLY Radio One every single day between the ages of about 7 and 18. I can remember having my text messages read out by the presenters and I especially remember the first time I ever heard The Prodigy was on the radio in the car. So even though that’s not an “underground” radio station, it didn’t matter because it was introducing me to new (to me) music, which was what got me hooked.

“In terms of making radio, years later I’ve gone back and listened to old radio shows I recorded with friends, and realised they were (accidental!) time capsules of where we were hanging out,,  what I was learning about, the books I was reading, who I had a crush on.. it was all in there. “

In a similar manner, why is radio still relevant considering the average attention span of people have probably decreased dramatically in the rise of music streaming, on-demand media and all that? 

A: When the pandemic happened, a mutual on Instagram started a radio called Volumelithic on Mixlr and I joined it. All the hosts were people who he knew in real life or online.

G: Me and my friends did a Mixlr too! I think it kept me sane.

A: The hosts would stick to the schedule and broadcast every single week. That radio was a companion during lockdown. I would tune in very frequently, and chat with that small group of people in the chatroom, and it helped me go through a lot during isolation—considering I spent around six months living almost completely alone. Sometimes I do dance music mixes for Sunday broadcasting as well. This radio is still going on Mixlr even though I don’t tune in as much now.

G: Mixlr is a dream. We had so much fun doing ours and were surprised that we got amazing responses; people calling in from all over the world! We had some people coming back every week to listen, and I found that really kept me going because I knew every week I would need new music to play on Friday night. The fact that we could sit in our living room, share music with each other, have people tune in and enjoy themselves was so affirming.

A: I guess in a sense radio is more humane. Both the broadcaster and the listeners could get a lot out of radio.

G: It’s lovely when they can work as a team! Especially with live radio.


Do you think about representation when running a radio series?

A: When I looked at the question, I was thinking that the exposure you get from being on the radio doesn’t necessarily get you booked. Representation doesn’t seem to translate into money.

G: True! Suggesting a DJ to a promoter or sharing an artist’s music with a label might be direct ways to support them rather than only inviting them onto a show. That doesn’t mean having a platform to develop and showcase what you can do isn’t important for artists, but as you said it doesn’t automatically equate to further opportunities.


Do you think the geographic location of the radio matters anymore?
G:  I’m always happy for any opportunity to hear a DJ that I’ve never heard before doing something interesting or surprising. Anything that makes that possible—like curators who are inviting artists they come across in their city—I’m down. It’s interesting to have international residents too —that’s my case on HKCR and quite a lot of people that are on the station. But as a listener, I wouldn’t want the local programming for all of these different stations to not be present.

A: I talked to Gavin (Founder of HKCR) about the local/international programming on HKCR and he said HKCR is for nerds. What he meant was that HKCR is not that local, although there are obviously local programs. I think the reason why I could write for HKCR is exactly because it’s not really that local. I’m not based in Hong Kong; neither am I from Hong Kong even though I grew up not far away from that city.

G: I did community radio when I was in the States a few years ago and because it was broadcast on FM in the local area it was on in people’s cars, in shops, the pizza place.. I had a late night slot, and every week I got a lot of calls from people opening up a cafe at five o’clock in the morning or even driving back from working night shifts. I think if it was an internet station those people probably still could have tuned in, but the fact that I knew everyone listening was from a fairly small radius surrounding where I was physically situated, and had turned on a radio in the depths(!) of night time definitely changed how I approached the show.

A: I want to come back to the previous question about there being too many radio mixes. Well, I think that question exists probably because Gavin thinks of more online radios. When you talk about the local FM community radio, I don’t think you will be overwhelmed by too many radio shows. But if you follow a bunch of online radios and dive into their archives, you might feel it’s a bit hard to keep up.

G: I feel like anything that’s delivered to you on a “feed” is overwhelming by design, though sometimes I enjoy a healthy bit of overwhelm.

“When you talk about the local FM community radio, I don’t think you will be overwhelmed by too many radio shows. But if you follow a bunch of online radios and dive into their archives, you might feel it’s a bit hard to keep up. “

Any other radio station you think is ‘cool’ right now (other than HKCR)? What’s great about them?

A: My answer would be a station called Radio is a Foreign Country. The introduction of this radio says it features cut-ups of international radio broadcasts, field recordings, ethnographic film, vintage records & cassettes. All the sounds from this radio are really new to me.

G: I am forever in awe of Datafruits! I particularly like how they are open with consulting their supporters about new developments and improvements for the station, and the design, curation and unabashed commitment to the music is always an inspiration.

CHINESE VERSION
【 WHY RADIO？— Cheng Dao Yuan (TPE)】

於這個系列當中，我們訪問了我們的節目主持人於當下仍製作電台節目的源由和意義，台北的多媒體製作人及音樂人鄭道元分享了他的答案，並且分享了他獨特的創作過程。

「對我來說，Mix就像是用「他人的情緒片段」建構成一段自己的訊息或是故事，以更加隱晦的方式去建立與他人的連結。」

🎧Cheng Daoyuan – 如縊 Strangle to Survive (Wa?ste Remix)
📹 Ly Ly

ENGLISH VERSION

【 WHY RADIO？— Cheng Dao Yuan (TPE)】

We asked our hosts what’s the meaning of making radio episode in present time, Clansie Cheng Dao Yuan, a multi-media artist and musican, had shared with us his answers, as well as the unique creative process behind his radio episodes.

“To me, making a mix is like using “emotional fragments” from others to construct a piece of message or story relating to myself. Like establishing a connection with others, but in a more subtle way.”

🎧Cheng Daoyuan – 如縊 Strangle to Survive (Wa?ste Remix)
📹 Ly Ly

CHINESE VERSION
12月11號週六晚上香港時間7點/ 印度時間下午4點 / 澳洲時間晚上10點起於 HKCR.LIVE 收聽。

Stream live on HKCR.LIVE at 7P.M. HKT / 430P.M. IST / 10P.M. AEDT on 9/12/21

Enclave 為即將發行的EP 專輯 World in progress 密鑼緊鼓，他們自上年6月開始就開始磨拳擦掌，包括於封城前後的表演活動，其中包括在Yours & Owls音樂節的現場演出。

現在當澳洲正慢慢地慢慢地回復正常， 他們也在10月起發起了EP的第一首名為 Pale Guilt 的單曲作品， 一首寫下了他們對白人內疚感及收此所發出的表演性的行動主義所產生的不滿以及同情 。 『那裡仍有認清的價值，直視它在你根源中的真相 （There’s value left to learn, meet the truth it’s in your roots）』。主唱 Pat McCarthy 繼續說：『 表演性的行動主義利用了少數群體的傷痛和創傷，他們一直在做的事情是一種來自一種特權，而且往往是在不知不覺中。有時，我們的行動主義只是為了讓別人看到。 我認為這欠缺誠實的自我反省。 當沒有人看的時候，我們淪落為什麼？（Performative activism capitalizes on the pain and trauma of minority groups, it’s privileged doing what they have always done, and quite often unknowingly. Sometimes the extent of our activism can exist solely for the world to see. I believe honest self-reflection is lacking. Who are we when nobody is looking）』

Enclave 是由幾位志同道合，來自幾個包括City Rose, COLD/HEAT, Black Drum, 和 Lorelei 的不同樂隊成員組成而誕生。 他們的狂熱的創作背後的概念都總帶著共同社區和個人發展為目標。Enclave 努力讓他們的音樂反映他們希望自身能於自己以外的世界作貢獻的強烈衝動。

World in progress 將會在明年開初發行。這張EP專輯會觸碰到例如個人發展、尋找幫助他人的意義，對更好的世界存有希望、以及對於未能與撒手人寰的愛人溝通帶來的無奈痛楚等的主題。

這個直播演出將會是Hounds of Pamir 的節目年終節目，這個節目是由精通多個藝術範疇，來自印度拉達克的 Ruhail Qaisar 的主持。

這個通常長60分鐘的常駐節目製作由當初取材於當地零下氣候、iPhone 上的 Moog 合成器、當地的現場錄音而組成的現場演出，在整個疫情的局限性中，進一步延伸到一個大型協作，以電台方式請來自世界各地的嘉賓展示的不同場景， 集體和藝術家，無論任何流派。

ENGLISH VERSION
Enclave return in preparation for their upcoming EP titled ‘World in progress’.The group has been sharpening their swords since their first release in June of last year, playing shows in-between Country and State lockdowns, including a performance at Yours & Owls festival earlier this year.

Now, just as Australia slowly opens itself up again, in October Enclave followed suit with the first release from their EP. Titled ‘Pale Guilt’, a song written out of frustration toward the absurdity that is performative activism while simultaneously having a closer, more forgiving look at white guilt and shame. “There’s value left to learn, meet the truth it’s in your roots.”

Vocalist Pat McCarthy adds “Performative activism capitalizes on the pain and trauma of minority groups, it’s privileged doing what they have always done, and quite often unknowingly. Sometimes the extent of our activism can exist solely for the world to see. I believe honest self-reflection is lacking. Who are we when nobody is looking? ”

Enclave was birthed as a result of the camaraderie shared between members of City Rose, COLD/HEAT, Black Drum, and Lorelei. Creating fierce music with a sense of shared community and self-development in mind, Enclave strives for their music to reflect the strong compulsion they share to be of use to the world outside of themselves.

‘World in progress’ will be released at the beginning of the new year. The EP approaches themes such as self-development, finding purpose in the aid of others, remaining hopeful for a better world, and the pain and frustration felt from no longer being able to communicate with loved ones taken too soon.

This live performance also marks the year-end episode of Hounds of Pamir, an ongoing radio residency at Hong Kong Community Radio hosted by multidisciplinary artist Ruhail Qaisar from Ladakh, India.

CHINESE VERSION
語言是Nicky Mao (毛恩馨) 談論音樂時常出現的主題。她在紐約學習創意寫作，但最終以Hiro Kone的名義憑藉音樂建立起自己的語言。從幼小時期開始，她就和音樂建立起深厚的連繫，不只因為她小時學過音樂—她的很多回憶都依附於某些家庭事件發生時，所播放的音樂；作為獨生小孩，她的孤單體驗也加深了她和音樂的聯繫。然而，直至在多年以後，她才發現，在自己感興趣的事情之中—包括寫作—音樂才是最自然的，最吸引她的東西。音樂才是她註定用於溝通的語言。

Nicky知道實打實的詞語留下的影響是深刻而永恆的。『儘管我上學學的是寫作，我能看到詞語的力量有多麼強大。我非常敬仰作家，但於我而言，我更能自在地在音樂中表達自我…我感興趣的是詞句外的語言，是詞句間的空隙，是沉默，我對我們沒說出口和說出口的東西同樣感興趣，還有我們為何重複訴說某些東西。』Nicky感興趣的事物存在於聲音之中，而她可以通過自己的方式做出這些東西來。

雕塑則是另一個持續的參照點—音樂不只是在聲的層面上吸引她，音樂同樣是有形的，有著視覺的層面。形狀，質感，顏色，物件…這些東西存在於音樂裡；音樂是啞光的，或是閃亮的，又或是疏鬆的。

在成長過程中她彈奏的都是絃樂器—孩童時期彈奏小提琴，青少年時期在朋克樂隊裡彈奏吉他。而現在的她主要使用的是模組合成器。這樣的工作過程非常耗時。『我並不常知道音樂會如何成型，得花上一段時間我才能看到整個生態系統會是怎樣的。』她會在模組上構思出一段較長的（聲音）材料，然後對其進行雕刻，加入新的東西，減去某些東西—最主要的還是做減法—給予這塊材料清晰的輪廓。『這樣做對我來說是相當耗時的，思考要往哪個方向處理材料也是挺花時間的。』

在疫情下，空間成了Nicky思考的非常重要的問題。她思考音樂所存在的空間：封城期間，空間的缺失使她沒法說服自己做線上直播表演—『（在現場演出時）空間裡的聲音，聲音的震盪和混響，這些東西全都非常重要。』但也不止是物理空間。Nicky留意到這股把全套生活搬到線上的勢頭，她卻選擇後退一步進行觀察，而非欣然地加入這場派對。她對資本主義，科技法西斯主義，對不斷取得「進步」的科技與及許多人糟糕的物質條件所形成的極端反差…關於這些事情的思考（而其中的很多她在疫情前已有進行探索），最終匯合成了『拒絕填充空間的衝動』這一直覺指引。在這條指引下，她寫出了第四張全長專輯，Silvercoat the throng。我跟Nicky聊了無常、寂靜、陰影和空間—這些事情大多指向我們所缺乏，而且在主動逃避的一種空虛。

訪問：梁安琳 Anlin Liang

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對我來說，當我聽你的音樂時，我看到的更多是電影般的場面。好像有別的人寫過你的音樂可以做佐杜洛夫斯基版本的《沙丘》配樂。

是的，很多人會聯想到科幻電影，完全可以。我想到的更多是…我特別喜歡的導演之一，賈樟柯。我聯想到的是他做的慢電影。我愛他的作品。他使用音樂的方式也很有意思。

你最喜歡他的哪部電影？

我愛《江湖兒女》，這是最近出的一部。我這陣子還看了《三峽好人》，也很好。我現在正在讀一篇他的長篇採訪，出自我朋友出的一本書裡，挺有意思的。我很欽佩他。我還喜歡畢贛，還有蔡明亮。你大概能懂我會被怎樣的視覺吸引。

你如何與他們的電影產生連結？

如果你在不同的地方之間生活，比方說，像我，一個移民後代，來到這裡，你總是會有一種渴望歸宿的感覺，以及無常的感覺。我在亞洲和美國之間來回，還感覺到自己介乎於兩個世界之間。賈樟柯電影有一套很好辨識的生態系統，人們的流離失所或遷移是其中的焦點。在中國各個地區的人因不同原因遷移到不同的地方，產生的動盪以及由此發生的種種事情。這當然跟我個人的經歷非常不同，但其中的某些氣氛和情感讓我感覺熟悉，也幫助我更好地理解周圍的世界。電影裡反映的這些東西—對無常感的表達，以及變遷的不同形式，深深吸引著我：有的人是被迫離家，被消滅，這是非常負面及悲傷的。但是當人們找到方法與彼此建立聯繫時，又是非常動人，也給人提供了慰藉。

你感覺自己像是一個流浪者嗎？

我的作品和我這個人身上都有這樣的遊蕩的特質，就像是一個混合體—這裡不是我的歸宿，那裡也不是我的家。然而當我在移動的時候，我常常會想，『這感覺就像回到家了。』

你跟香港的關係是怎樣的？

很奇怪，我有時會非常思念這座城市，儘管一直以來我都只算是個外人，因為我從來不是那裡的永久居民。但我對這座城市有著很深的認識，因為我在那裡獨自度過了很多的時光，四周圍探索。在香港我的感官似乎變敏銳得多。即便我已離開這個地方許久，我還是能很容易地回想起那裡潮濕的空氣，顏色，氣味，種種東西。我還記得自己在青少年時期發現了王家衛的電影，並為這座城市如此被展現在銀幕上激動不已。我不知該怎麼跟在加州的朋友分享我熟知和熱愛的另一座城市，因此當他的電影突然大受西方觀眾歡迎時，我感到十分開心。

我一直以來都想在香港待長點。我非常想念香港，比對加州的想念還更深。也許是因為我在此地來來去去，它的缺席使它在我心目中的地位更加特別了。它是我自身很重要的一個組成部分，然而對我在美國生活身邊那些從未去過香港的人來說，這個地方仍是個謎。在某些尷尬的瞬間，我會強烈意識到自己跟美式文化某些方面的脫節。香港聯合電台的Gavin上一年邀請我成為電台常駐主持，這件事對我來說意義深重。這是一種被認可的感覺，似乎過去在對我說『你也屬於此處。』

你有去過香港嗎？

有的，我一輩子都住在離它很近的地方。

你喜歡這座城市嗎？你感覺到跟它的連結嗎？

每次我去那裡的時候，我都會去表姐住的劏房那裡落腳。她曾是一名餐館員工，所以我知道擁有不多的人在那座城市是怎樣生存的。 

香港的貧富差距應該是在世界之巔，這是一座圍繞著由英國殖民統治所生出來的一個階級系統而運轉的城市。

我想問跟你的新專輯有關的問題。你的新專輯創作於全球疫情期間，圍繞的是『拒絕填充空間的衝動』這一想法。我可以很直接地將其跟很多人—至少是那些不需要做薪水低廉的「必要」工種的人—在大規模封鎖期間都抒發過的沮喪感聯繫起來：我們如今手頭上有這麼多的空閒，我們該做什麼呢？但你能告訴我這個想法源自哪裡嗎？ 

我想的是…如果我們不後退一步，觀察我們前進的方向，我們怎麼能夠真正知道接下來該怎麼走？我表達的這個觀念在疫情期間變重要了許多。大家匆匆忙忙地將所有事情都轉移到網上。我的很多作品都是在講資本主義—這個系統裡各個部件的運轉就是要鼓勵人們匆忙地將每件事都挪到網上：zoom視頻通話，我們的日常鍛煉，教育，一切一切。我不是說這全都不好。我完全理解為什麼人們需要保持聯繫，我也理解為什麼人們要推動這樣的改變。我只是想要後退一步，想想這樣做意味著什麼—我們給這些公司提供了什麼，我們把自己的哪些資訊都拱手讓給了這些我們需要警惕的公司。還有，這持續的生產蒙蔽了我們對自身，對周遭世界的哪些認知。 

科技法西斯主義的威脅正籠罩在我們頭上，而我們對此並沒有充足的討論，我們也不談它是如何深深埋藏在我們生活的每個方面的。政府受惠於這些科技公司—只要看看那些減稅政策你就清楚政府是如何和大科技公司勾結的。我們作為消費者越是依賴科技，這些公司對我們生活就有越大的控制權…所以說，我們這麼快就全盤接受，把一切轉移到線上，這我認為是值得憂慮的。這對科技公司來說簡直就是一場完美的風暴，他們可喜歡極了。這是其中之一。還有很多其他的東西我覺得是可以放進「不想填充我們生活裡突然多出來的空間」這個概念裡的，我們也許可以思考不同的生存模式，不同的合作模式。

這和我的其他作品，以及我過去就我的作品談論過的事情都是有聯繫的，比方說我前一張專輯 A Fossil Begins to Bray。很多的這些想法都是連續的。如果我們不去思考我們進步的方向，這樣的進步並不是我想要的。要不然我們就只是一味地維持這個機器的運轉，然而我認為我們有重新想像事物的機會。

『科技法西斯主義的威脅正籠罩在我們頭上，而我們對此並沒有充足的討論，我們也不談它是如何深深埋藏在我們生活的每個方面的。』

我們要重新思考進步意味著什麼—進步就是「好」的嗎？ 

是的，人們真的是鍾情於進步。我愛賈樟柯的電影大概也有這樣的原因，回到這個話題上來。我感興趣的是這種自上而下帶來的連鎖影響，以及這類想法—對「進步」的看法—帶來的影響。這對人們的生活有著真切的影響。我還對如何與其抗爭感興趣—我們如何回應，如何對它說「不」。

你有看過紀錄片Summer of Soul嗎？這部影片紀錄的是1969年發生的哈萊姆文化節，同年還有人類歷史上的第一次登月。觀眾裡的一位黑人男性被採訪者問到他對此事件的看法。他說的大概是那些錢本該可以用來解決貧窮問題，住房問題等等。最近媒體不是在說現在沒人關心億萬富翁的太空競賽嗎，但我看到那個採訪我才意識到，這樣的感想其實並不是最近才產生的。 

你懂我的想法，舉的這個例子也很貼切。我感興趣的是真正的改變，而非為了進步而進步。這也是個非常西方的概念，但已經傳播到每個角落了。你知道哲學家韓炳哲（Byung Chul-han）嗎？

我有聽說過他。 

他說過同樣的東西，我之前也說過—每個人時時刻刻都在對著屏幕，就像是光不會滅。如果光不滅，我們就看不到陰影。我覺得我們需要看到陰影，這樣我們才能看到我們需要細細思考的事物的輪廓。如果我們一直住在這種積極的環境中，住在這透明的螢幕裡，我們看不到背後的東西。我常常思考這個，以及我們看事物的角度。我猜我對陰影，對後退一步留出空間如此感興趣，就是為了看得更清楚一些。

你前面有跟我說過你對「沉默」感興趣，對沒有說出口的東西感興趣，我覺得它們跟你剛說的「陰影」是相聯繫的—你能舉個例子，告訴我你經歷中的沉默嗎？ 

當我還是個小孩子的時候，我和我的祖父母在一起度過了很多時間，尤其是和祖母。不幸的是，我不會講粵語，我知道一些詞彙，但不多。她不會講英文。我們的交流包含了沉默，還有將我破碎的粵語跟她破碎的英語拼湊起來。我們可以通過破碎的語言，面部，手勢，以及沉默進行交流。切身體會到各種不同的溝通方式及其潛能後，你會想要更進一步觀察。我還能想到的是跟我的家人坐在晚餐餐桌上，有的時候他們與我對話，有的時候他們談論關於我的事情，但用的是另一種語言，有的時候我會跟我的祖父談話，他說一口完美的英語。你會對各種不同的交流方式感到自在—你並不會總是知道人們在說什麼，有的時候你知道，有的時候你又聽到了別的東西，又或者有的時候餐桌上的人們突然都安靜下來，大家卻不會感到不適。這些對我而言都很有意思。我在那裡度過的夏天讓我學會了安靜獨處。我是獨生小孩，沒有兄弟姊妹，跟家裡人一起住時也沒有年紀相仿的朋友。我覺得這些經歷讓我成為了一個好的傾聽者。傾聽太被低估了。

我很高興你提及你想要真正的改變。我時不時在「欣賞藝術的自身」與及「質問『藝術有什麼意義？』」這兩種想法之間掙扎。 

正是。不論是怎樣小的平台 ，我想要用來展開這樣的討論。我前面說過，談論音樂，談論我如何製作音樂，這些都很好，但我對我們現在討論的事情更感興趣。一個更大的圖景。對，我做電子音樂，我做了一個作品，出了黑膠，但在我的作品裡，我考慮的是更全面的東西。我感興趣的是分享想法如何能夠推動我們往更好的方向前進。假如我的音樂能通過某種方式參與到這樣的改變中，即使是很小很小的貢獻，這樣的人生就是有意義的。

你喜愛雕塑家豪爾赫·奧泰薩（Jorge Oteiza），還分享過他說過的一句話：『藝術不會改變任何事情，不會改變世界，不會改變現實。藝術真正改變的是藝術家自身，他在該過程中改進，轉變，完善他的語言。這個被藝術改變了的人，才能通過生活改變現實。』我本想問這句話如何應用到你自己作為藝術家的經歷上，不過我才你已經回答了。 

對的，我感興趣的是這個過程。我感興趣的是我們如何更好的社會一員，我們如何與我們的環境構建更好的親屬關係。我們現在活在一個特別自戀的時空裡，讓我們緊盯著內心，渴求持續卻空洞的認可。 

問自己想要如何跟這個世界相處是很重要的。如果我要做點什麼，不管是音樂還是截然不同的東西，這其中都要有對他人的關懷。

『我們現在活在一個特別自戀的時空裡，讓我們緊盯著內心，渴求持續卻空洞的認可。 

問自己想要如何跟這個世界相處是很重要的。如果我要做點什麼，不管是音樂還是截然不同的東西，這其中都要有對他人的關懷。』

你的想法受哪些書影響呢？ 

我最近讀了魯哈·本傑明（Ruha Benjamin）的Race after Technology，感覺非常貼合當下—考慮到我們對科技的依賴越來越深。她寫的是新興科技如何鞏固白人至上主義。我還提到了韓炳哲（Byung Chul-han）。我也喜歡唐娜·哈拉維（Donna Haraway）, （她寫的是）我們和周遭世界的關係，而不只是人類之間的關係。但其實我今年讀的大部分是詩歌—又回到需要空間的這個話題上。我在過去讀了很多的批判理論，然而過去的兩年裡我沒法讀太多理論。我要暫停一下，開始讀詩歌。在詩歌裡有給我大腦的空間，給我呼吸的空間。

你最喜愛的詩人有哪些？ 

我很喜歡雪萊﹙Percy Shelley）。我拜訪過他隱藏在羅馬的墳墓，那個墓園裡住著很多貓，感覺是一個很合適的地點。我最近還發現了一個名為Garous Abdolmalekian的伊朗詩人，他的詩最近才第一次被翻譯為英文。我真心推薦Lean Against This Late Hour這個詩集。

最後，可以談談你對抵制、撤資、制裁運動（BDS Movement）的支持嗎？你已經支持這個運動相當長一段時間了。 

對我來說解放巴勒斯坦該是不容置疑的，在巴勒斯坦發生的事情是一項由幾個西方強國安排的殖民工程。以色列政府全副武裝，而弱勢的巴勒斯坦人民要麼活在佔領之下，要麼在逃亡。他們之間不是勢均力敵的。熟悉二戰後歷史事件的人應該清楚這是對壓迫和消除的延續。在被佔領的巴勒斯坦，人們的家常被奪去或是鏟倒。這樣反復出現的事情再直觀不過—這是在磨滅巴勒斯坦存在的歷史印記。因此我們不能保持沉默。

 2019年我去巴勒斯坦的時候，我先去了約旦。我在安曼的許多朋友是巴勒斯坦人，但是他們不能和我一起進入巴勒斯坦參加在拉馬拉舉行的一個音樂節。那說明了什麼？他們是巴勒斯坦人，我是美國人，為什麼我能進，他們卻不能。就因為我有美國護照。我的朋友沒有「正確」的文件，就不能自由地移動，然而其他有著以色列，英國或美國護照的人卻可以。這個世界的懸殊，以及誰掌握著權力，不言而喻。

 我生活在一個給以色列「國防」軍 （Israel Defense Forces, IDF）資助上百億美元的國家，但實際上他們是「佔領（occupation）」軍，壓迫巴勒斯坦人民，讓他們活在恐懼中。我曾跟希伯倫的一個年輕人談話，他告訴我在他還是個青少年時，IOF曾試圖在他身上栽贓一把刀，若不是他的鄰居及時望出窗外，他就會被他們射殺了。美國對那裡發生的事情有很大的干涉權力。我們與其息息相關，是需要負責任的。因此我支持我的朋友及他們回歸家園的權利。

Hiro Kone 於Dais Records推出的第四張全長專輯 Silvercoat the throng 現已推出，連結收聽。


ENGLISH VERSION
Language is a recurring theme when Nicky Mao talks about music. She studied Creative Writing in New York, but eventually came to build her language through music, under the alias Hiro Kone. She had a strong connection with music since she was very young, but not just because she played it as a kid—a lot of her memories are attached to songs her family were playing when something happened; the solitariness she experienced growing up as an only child also deepened her engagement with music. It took her years, however, before she discovered that out of everything she had been interested in, including writing, that music most appealed to her and made sense for her. Music was the language she was meant to use for communication.

Actual words could be intense and permanent, and Nicky knows that. “Even though I went to school for writing and even though I studied it, I saw how words are so extremely powerful. I have so much admiration for writers but music just felt more like a comfortable place for me to express myself…because I’m interested in language outside of words, I’m interested in like the space between words, I’m interested in silence, I’m interested in the things that we don’t say as much as the things we do say, or why we repeat certain things.” Things Nicky is interested in exist within sounds, and she could achieve them with sounds, in her own way.

Sculpture is another constant reference point—music doesn’t just sonically appeal to her, it’s also physical and visual. Shapes, texture, colour, objects…these things also exist in music for her; music is matte, or shiny, or porous.

Growing up playing string instruments—the violin as a kid and the guitar in a punk band as a teenager,  she now works mostly with modular synths. It’s a time consuming process to work this way. “I don’t always know the shape, it takes time for me to see what that ecosystem is going to be like,” Nicky says. She would start with sketching one long piece on the modular, and then start to chisel this piece of material, add stuff, take away stuff—mostly take away stuff—and start to give it its definition. “That takes time for me to do that, and to sit with it and know what direction I want to go with that.”

During the pandemic, space has also become an increasingly important topic that Nicky dwells on. On the space that music exists in: she couldn’t bring herself to do livestream performance in lockdown due to the absence of space—“The sound within that space (when playing music live) and the vibration and the reverb and all those things are extremely important.” But also beyond that physical space. Alerted to this momentum of moving our life online, Nicky took a step back and observed rather than joining the party unquestioningly. Her reflection on capitalism, techno-facism, the polarity between the rapid “progress” made in technology and the dire material reality of many people, a lot of which she had explored even pre-pandemic, culminated into the intuitive directive “resist the urge to fill the space”, under which she wrote her 4^th full-length album, Silvercoat the throng. I talked to Nicky about the transience, silence, shadow and space—most of these things point to a void that we most likely lack and actively seek refuge from.

Interview by Anlin Liang

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For me, when I listen to your music, I see something more cinematic. Someone else might have written that your music could be used to soundtrack Jorodowsky’s version of Dune.

Yeah a lot of people think of science fiction, which is totally fine. I think of more…one of the directors I really like, Jia Zhangke. That slow cinema he does, that to me is what I feel like. I love his work. He uses music in interesting ways, too.

What’s your favourite film of his?

I love Ash is Purest White, which is a more recent one. And recently I saw Still Life, which is really good too. I’m reading a quite long interview with him right now in a book my friend published, it’s really interesting. I admire him so much. And I like Bi Gan. And then Tsai Ming-liang. So this probably gives you a sense of some of the visual aspects I am drawn to.

How do you relate to their films?

If you live between worlds in a way, say, you’re a child of immigrant, for instance, like myself, who came here, there’s always this feeling of longing and transience. Because I went back and forth between Asia and the US, there’s this feeling of existing somewhere between both worlds. There’s a recognizable ecosystem to Jia Zhangke’s films, that centers a lot around the displacement or the migration of people. People within different regions of China moving to different places for different reasons, and the destabilization and things that happen as a result of this. It’s of course very different than my personal experience, but there are certain tones and emotions that feel familiar and help me understand the world around me better. There’s something striking and interesting to see these things reflected through those films—the expression of what that transience feels like, and how there’re different forms of it: some of it is just outright displacement and erasure, and it can be really negative and sad. At other times it can feel very touching and comforting as people find ways in which to relate to one another.

Do you feel like a nomad?

There’s a quality to my work and to who I am that feels very nomadic and feels like a hybrid—never quite felt like at home here, never quite felt at home there. However, often I think to myself when I’m in motion, “How at home I feel.”

What’s your relationship with Hong Kong like?

It’s strange but I get really homesick for the city, though in a way I’m always a bit of an outsider because I was never a permanent resident. But I know it in this really deep way because I spent so much time alone there, exploring the city. I feel as though my senses are heightened when I’m there. The humidity, the colors, the smell, all of it is really easy for me to visualize, even when I’ve been away for a long time. I remember when I was a teenager and discovered Wong Kar Wai it felt so exhilarating to see the city projected on the screen like that. I didn’t have any way of sharing with my friends in California this other city I knew and loved, so the sudden proliferation and popularity of his films with western audiences was kind of exciting for me.

I always want more time in Hong Kong. I miss it quite a lot, more so than I do California. Maybe there’s something about the coming and going, the absence of it that makes it more special to me. It’s a huge part of who I am, yet it remains a mystery I think to the people in my life here in the US who have never been. There are awkward moments where I feel really cognizant of how out of step I feel with certain aspects of American culture. It meant a lot to me when Gavin from HKCR reached out to ask me to be a resident last year. It felt a little like being recognized in some way, the past saying, “You belong here, too.”

Have you been to Hong Kong at all?

Yeah, I lived quite near there for my entire life.

Do you like it? Do you feel a connection to it?

Every time I went there I would stay with a cousin who live in a subdivided unit. She was a restaurant worker. So I know what it’s like if you don’t have much living in that city.

The disparity in wealth in Hong Kong has to be one of the worst in the world, it really is a city that caters to a class system which echos it’s British colonialist roots.

I want to ask about your new album. It’s created during the pandemic and it comes from this idea “resist the urge to fill the space”. I could very straightforwardly relate it to a frustration a lot of people—at least people who don’t have to work the low paying “essential” jobs— have expressed during the massive lockdown: now we have all the time, what are we gonna do? But could you tell me where the idea comes from?

I think…If we don’t step back and observe the direction we are taking, how are we going to really know what steps need to be taken. This idea that I’m expressing was really heightened during the pandemic. There was a rush to move everything online. A lot of my works talk about capitalism—there was a rush because of the way that the machineries working to keep it going and there was a lot of promoting of that behaviour to move everything online: zoom calls, our exercise routines, education, everything. I’m not saying that all of this is necessarily bad. I also understand why people need contact with one another, and why people felt the propulsion towards this. But I just want also to take a step back and think about what that means though—what we are giving these companies, what information of ourselves more we are giving freely over to what I believe we have to be really wary of. Also what does this constant productivity keep us from learning about ourselves and the world around us.

I think that we are under threat of techno-fascism, and I think that is something we don’t talk about enough, and we don’t talk about how deeply embedded that is into all of this. We have governments who are now beholden to these technological companies—one can just see the tax breaks to understand how in bed Government is with Big Tech. And the more that we consumers become dependent on the technology, the more influence they have in control over our lives so…it feels like a concern about the fact that we were so quick to just accept this and move it all on to online. It’s like the perfect storm for them. They love it! That was one thing. There are a lot of things I think that fit into that whole idea of not wanting to fill the space that we suddenly had in our lives, to maybe consider other modes of existence, other modes of collaboration and working together.

It’s a correlation with other albums and things that I’ve been talking about in the past with my work, like the previous album A Fossil Begins to Bray. A lot of these ideas are sort of in continuation. Progress without thinking about what we’re progressing towards is not what I’m personally after. Or it’s just like feeding this machine when I feel like we have an opportunity to maybe reimagine things.

“I think that we are under threat of techno-fascism, and I think that is something we don’t talk about enough, and we don’t talk about how deeply embedded that is into all of this.”

We need to rethink what progress means—is progress necessarily “good”?

Yes. People get really enamoured with progress. I guess that’s part of why I love Zhangke’s films too, going back to that. I’m interested in the effects of that trickle down, the effects of this type of thinking—what progress is. It has real life effects on people. I’m interested in that and interested in how to fight that, or how we can respond to that, and say “no”.

Have you seen Summer of Soul, the documentary? It was about Harlem Cultural Festival that happened in 1969, the same year when the first moon landing in human history happened. A black man in the audience was interviewed and he was asked what he thought of this event. He basically said all that money could have been used to fix poverty and housing problem and such. You know the media is talking about how no one is enthusiastic about all this billionaires space race recently, but when I saw that interview in the film I realized it was not a novel sentiment.

You know what I’m thinking about and really illustrated that. I’m interested in real transformation, and not just progress for the sake of progress. It’s a very Western idea, which has been indoctrinated everywhere. Do you know the philosopher Byung Chul-han?

Yes I heard of him.

He says the same, and I’ve said it before, too. Everyone’s on the screen all the time, it’s like the light doesn’t break. So if the light doesn’t break, we don’t see the shadows. I think we need to be able to see the shadows, in order to see the definition of the things that we need to consider and think about. And so if we’re just living constantly in the positive, this transparent screen constantly, we can’t see what’s behind it. It’s just something I think a lot about, and our perceptions of things. I guess that’s why I’m really interested in the shadow or taking that step back and allowing that space to be there—so that I can see better.

You told me earlier that you are interested in silence, in unsaid things, which I would relate to the shadow that you just talked about—could you give me an example of this silence in your experience?

When I was a kid I spent a lot of time with my grandparents, with my grandmother. Unfortunately, I didn’t speak Cantonese, I know some words but not a lot. And she didn’t speak English. Our way of communicating encompasses the silences as well as the piecing things together from my very broken Cantonese and her very broken English. We were able to communicate with our broken languages, our faces, with our gestures and our silences. You experience that range of communication first-hand, and it shows you potential, and so you want to observe more. And then I can also think of things like sitting at the dinner table with my family, sometimes they’re speaking to me, sometimes they’re speaking about me, but in another language, sometimes I’m talking to my grandfather who speaks perfect English; you just get comfortable with these different ways of communication—not always knowing what people are saying, and then knowing and then hearing something there, or suddenly there’s a silence that comes over the dinner table, and people are just comfortable. That’s all really interesting to me. I learned a lot about being alone and quiet during my summers there. Because I was an only child, I didn’t have siblings, I didn’t have a lot of young friends around when I was living with them. I think this experience made me a good listener. Listening is so undervalued.

I’m glad that you mentioned you wanted real transformation. I struggle sometimes to reconcile the thoughts of loving art for art’s sake and questioning “what is this for?”

Yeah exactly. Whatever small platform I have, I want to use it to have discussions like this. I was saying earlier—it’s nice to talk about music and how we made it, but I’m more interested in what you and I are talking about. A bigger picture. Yeah, I make electronic music, I made a piece, it came out on vinyl, but it’s a more holistic thing that I’m considering in my work. I’m interested in how sharing ideas can move us in a better direction, and if my music in some way can be a part of that movement, in a very small way, then that feels like a life well-lived.

You love sculptor Jorge Oteiza and once shared this quote by him: “Art does not transform anything, it does not alter the world, it does not change reality. What the artist really transforms, as he evolves, transforms and completes his languages, is himself. And it is that man, transformed by art, who can, through life, transform reality.”

I was meant to ask how that applied to your own experience as an artist but I guessed you just answered.

Yeah it’s that process that I’m interested in. How we become better members of society and how we build better kinship with our environment. We’re living in an increasingly narcissistic time, one that focuses us inwards and necessitates constant empty affirmation.

Asking yourself what kind of relationship you want to have with the world is really crucial. If I’m going to do anything in my life, music, or something entirely different, it has to have a quality of care for others.

“We’re living in an increasingly narcissistic time, one that focuses us inwards and necessitates constant empty affirmation.

Asking yourself what kind of relationship you want to have with the world is really crucial. If I’m going to do anything in my life, music, or something entirely different, it has to have a quality of care for others.”

What books have informed you on your views?

I recently read Ruha Benjamin’s Race after Technology, and felt it was very timely—given our increasing reliance on technology. She writes about how emerging technology reinforces white supremacy. I also mentioned Byung Chul-Han. I love some Donna Haraway as well, (she writes about) our relationship with the world around us, not just human relationships. But this year I actually read mostly poetry—going back to this thing of needing space. In the past I’d read a lot of critical theory, and I just couldn’t bring myself to do much of that over the past two years. I took a break and started reading poetry. Because there was space there for my brain, and space to breathe, too.

Who are your favourite poets?

I love Percy Shelley a lot. I visited his grave which is tucked away in Rome, in a small cemetery where dozens of cats live. It felt like a really fitting spot. I recently discovered this Iranian poet Garous Abdolmalekian, he was just translated to English for the first time. I really recommend this collection Lean Against This Late Hour.

Finally, can we talk about your support for the BDS Movement? You have been a supporter for quite a long time.

For me it has never been a question whether Palestine should be free and that what was taking place there was a colonial project, orchestrated by a number of western powers. You have a state government (Israel) that is armed to the teeth and then you have a vulnerable population either living under occupation or exile. These are not equal players. Anyone who familiarizes themselves with the history of the events following World War II should see clearly this is a continuation of oppression and erasure. Homes are taken or razed to the ground all the time in occupied Palestine. The practice is plain and simple – to erase any historical evidence that is Palestine. That’s why we cannot remain silent.

When I visited Palestine in 2019, I visited Jordan first. Many of my friends in Amman are Palestinian and could not travel with me into Palestine to the festival I was attending in Ramallah. What does that say? They’re Palestinian, I’m American – how does it work that I’m allowed and they are not. Because I have this US passport. My friends who do not hold the “right” documentation cannot move freely while others with Israeli, British or American passports can. That says a lot about the disparity of the world and who maintains power.

I reside in a country that pours billions of dollars into the Israeli “defense” forces. Really they are “occupation” forces, used to repress the Palestinian people and keep them living in terror. I spoke with a young man in Hebron who told me the story of how the IOF tried to plant a knife on him when he was teenager and if it weren’t for his neighbor looking out the window at the right time, they would have shot him. The US plays such a large role in what is taking place there. We are so entwined and responsible for what is taking place. This is why I support my Palestinian friends and their right to return.

Hiro Kone’s 4th LP Silvercoat the throng is out now on Dais Records, listen.

CHINESE VERSION
「WHY RADIO？」是 HKCR 由主持人間訪談系列，旨在探索創作人間於 2021 的年頭，究竟為何堅持做電台節目的源由和意義。

訪問：Gussieft1

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本地有甚麼場景或者圈子對你，尤其於音樂和打碟的方面有所啟發？

雖然我住在丹麥，但是由於我並不是本地人，所以很難說我特別受當地的場景所影響。

其實我只是在新冠疫情後才開始策劃和分享我以前還在家鄉印尼住的時候就喜愛的音樂。現在我已經在歐洲住了滿10年，我一直都沒有脫離音樂，不過我也沒有將我的愛好投入於當地的場景裡。

我並不視自已為一位「做」音樂的人，因為我也沒有創造甚麼作品，我只有聆聽和分享東西，我有去做一些混音，但我也不想稱呼自已為一位DJ，你明白我的意思嗎？

是的，我完全明白你的意思。

我純粹喜歡分享音樂而已，這是因為疫情後我開始真有時間去做混音和其他事情。以前的我通常只會為朋友的派對做歌單之類的，那是比較輕鬆沒太大顧慮。但自疫情後我開始很長時間待在家中，所以自自然然就開始了這件事，不過我仍不會說是當地的場景影響了我，因為即使到現在，我關注的大多是東南亞的音樂，而我之前反而是沒太多留意的。

原來如此，我也不會視自己為一位DJ 所以我自己大致也會這樣形容。我也不太受當地的場景的影響。

是的，當然丹麥本身也充滿了優秀的東西，不過當我初到貴境，我還未太了解當地場景疾情就發生了，而且我才剛剛移居到這裡。所以我猜我仍然很大程度上與東亞及東南亞的音樂有更大關聯，甚至在疾情期間更加踴躍多去發掘這些音樂，儘管也不至於我會排除其他音樂，但我於東南亞地區中找到更多我感興趣的音樂，尤其因為我來自印尼，在我開始做「DJ」後我變得更加有動機去探索自己國家的東西。

你知道我們是位於香港，而你則在歐洲，請問你與我們的地區會不會剛好有任何關連嗎？

我自己從未到過香港，但我有很多印尼的朋友到過，甚至他們當中認識當地的場境（應該本身是音樂人吧）。我聽說過許多關於香港的好東西，特別是它非常的繁華。我猜因為我位於歐洲，我從主流媒體吸收的資訊都是其他人對它的觀感，而且幾乎是關於政治的。我自已沒有對這方面沒有很資深的見解，所以我也沒有與其他人討論這些，我覺得在北歐居住，於主流層面上，很多當地人都把香港或中國與政治和社會動盪概括地連結一起。這是我對當地人對香港的理解，不過我作為一位亞洲人，你知道一般來說有很多事情，歐洲人其實以為自己懂卻其實甚麼都不懂。對不起，我似乎忘記了你的問題了（笑）。

（笑）

哈哈對，我只是住這裡，我不能代表歐洲人說他們對香港的想法，即使我知道這裡的傳媒說很多關於香港政治，但很少關注文化或音樂等的東西。

哈，在美國也是這樣。

是的，當其他人問到『你對這的想法是甚麼？』的時候，他們總是想你去選擇幫某一方，因為我從未去過香港也不會當地的語言，我會對這些問題感到尷尬。

據稱你對多個音樂種類都在行，哪你懟覺得這個音樂面向有甚麼好處嗎？而你覺得又有甚麼壞處呢（雖然我自己覺得沒有但也想問一下）。

我自己不喜歡只聽某一音種，我不屬於一名 House 音樂的「Selector」，如果整天只聽 House 太悶了。我覺得好處是你會容許自己發掘更多，而且避免將你自己被封閉於其他的音樂種類之外。

我有時甚至覺得「音樂種類」是挺精英主義的。有人可能會想：『我的天噢，你竟然聽 K-POP ？！』但我覺得如果你有去聆聽不同的音樂種類，譬如即使你喜歡某一首曲，你就會是單純地欣賞它，你不必因為「噢我喜歡它因為它是屬於甚麼音種」的理由而欺騙自己。有時候，我也會想聽一首好聽的流行樂曲或 emo 樂曲之類的，即使今時今日我都不太聽 emo 了。我從不顧慮自己是否認同自己為一名藝術家或DJ ，我分享音樂的原因更多就是我覺得很好玩而且，也籍此希望其他人聽了我的 Mix 也會覺得感興趣，你可能聽了裡面一首曲而覺得『噢這首歌不錯，這是甚麼歌？』，你不會去故意聯想這是屬於甚麼音種，再者我放的mix 甚麼音種都有。

當然，我也有我的音樂種類喜好，但這視乎我的心情和我當時喜歡的音樂。我個人來說，我不會傾向在我的電台節目只想著做同一個音樂種類的mix，我喜歡當是一個故事或一個發展的勢頭順著來。不過這是很個人的，我不會說其他的方法不好，但當你使用了多個音種時這是它的優勢，你可以以氛圍開始然後以 Hyperpop 結尾，對我來說這個手法會比較好玩。

我有時甚至覺得「音樂種類」是挺精英主義的。有人可能會想：『我的天噢，你竟然聽 K-POP ？！』但我覺得如果你有去聆聽不同的音樂種類，譬如即使你喜歡某一首曲，你就會是單純地欣賞它，你不必因為「噢我喜歡它因為它是屬於甚麼音種」的理由而欺騙自己。

對，我明白，我也會使用很多不同的音樂種類。你也是 HKCR 常駐節目的一員？我急不及待想聽你的節目呵！

我想講的是我不喜歡對所有事情太過「認真」，但真的我做這些的原因就是為了好玩，但我清楚能夠休閒地做這個事情是因為我比其他人有優勢，也因為我本身不是一個職業的 DJ/ 音樂人所以也沒有太認真地看待它，我幹這件事是為了發掘更多新或舊的音樂，以及享受分享和策展的樂趣。

重溫 Ricebaby 於HKCR 的節目的最新集數。

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ENGLISH VERSION

‘‘Why Radio?” is an interview series hosted by our residents, each of them contains conversations of the residents to explore the meaning of making radio shows in the year of 2021.

Interviewed by Gussief

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What are some local scenes or circles that inspire you, did it play a role in getting you into music and DJing and stuff?

I live in Denmark but I’m not from here originally so I wouldn’t say I’m very influenced by the local scene here, but I started really getting into it in the beginning of covid. I mean I always liked just curating stuff and sharing music before back when I was still living in Indonesia where I’m from originally. I’ve lived in Europe now for 10 years, and I’ve always had an affinity to music, but I wasn’t really doing it in that sense. I like to share stuff, I don’t see myself as a person who “does” music, because I don’t “do” music you know, I just like to listen to it and share stuff, I started mixing a little bit but I wouldn’t call myself a DJ, you know what I mean?

Yeah I know exactly what you mean

Yeah, I just like sharing music, and I think it was because of the beginning of covid, that I started to just have time to actually start getting into making mixes and all that stuff, you know whereas before I’d be making playlists for a friend’s party or something liek this, so it was more chill, but because of covid being at home a lot, that kind of started it, but I wouldn’t say I’m specifically influenced by a local scene, because also most of the stuff I’m looking into these days, and since I started getting into it, is a lot of south-east and east asian music, which I wasn’t actually digging so much into before. 

That makes a lot of sense, I wouldn’t consider myself like a DJ and I’d probably say the same thing, I’m not really inspired by the local scene round here really either

Yeah, I mean I think there’s a lot of good stuff here as well [Denmark] but when I moved here, I didn’t really know much about the local scene anyways and then covid happened, I moved here not too long before Covid happened, so I guess I was away more, and I always had more affinity to East and South East Asian music and I started digging it after Covid. Most of the stuff I play and look into is focused on south-east and east asian based artists. Not to say I’m excluding other stuff, but I guess I’m finding more stuff that I’m into from SE Asia, and coming from Indonesia, it’s given me more motivation to look into stuff from my own country which I didn’t used to before I got into so-called DJing or whatever.

So as you know we’re based in HK, you’re based in Europe, so do you have any connection to the region?

I’ve never been to HK personally but I’ve got lots of Indonesian friends who have been, and also I’ve got a lot of Inidonesian musician firends who know the scene more (I guess like, really musicians haha). And I’ve only heard good things about what’s happening there, that Hong Kong’s really vibrant and I guess living in Europe, most of the things I see or hear on mainstream media are people’s perception of, you know it always has to do with politics I guess. I’m not an expert on that stuff so I don’t really get into it with people, and it’s Europe, and I live in Northern Europe so it’s even more like, I think living here in general in Northern Europe, a lot of people look at Hong Kong or China as this like, they associate it a lot with politics and riots, all this kind of stuff, like on a mainstream level. THat’s what I know from people’s perceptions, but I don’t really get into it with people, since you know because I’m Asian myself, you know sometimes Europeans have these things that they think they know but they don’t really know, in a more general level I guess. What was the question? What people think of Hong Kong? 

*Laughter*

Haha yeah, I mean, I myself, I mean I live here, but I wouldn’t say I can represent what Europeans think of Hong Kong, but I know there is a lot of stuff in the media, but it’s more about politics and less about culture or music or stuff like this

Ha, yeah definitely in America it’s about politics too.

Yeah and people are always like asking your opinion like “what do you think of this?” or “what do you think..” you know, people are always kinda wanting you to choose a side or something, and it’s quite awkward because I’ve never been to Hong Kong and I don’t speak the language or anything. So if someone here in Denmark tends to focus on those big questions more, rather than other things, but it’s usually politics yeah.

So you’re multi-genre, so what’s your perspective on the pros of being multi-genral and do you think there are any cons at all (I don’t think there are but). 

If there are any cons at all?

No! The pros! More focusing on the pros, if there are any cons, mention them as well, pros and cons yknow!

Personally like I don’t only listen to one genre because I don’t feel like it, and I’m not like a house selector or DJ or anything, because just listening to house all day is boring! I think the pros are you get to discover more, and you don’t shut yourself off from other genres. I sometimes think that genres can be quite elitist. Sometimes someone could think “oh my God, you listen to K-pop?! How could you?” But I think with multi-genre, if you like a track, you just like a track, it doesn’t have to be like “Oh I can’t like this track because it’s this or this genre”, and you can’t lie to yourself, there are some days where you want to listen to a good pop song or an emo song or whatever, I mean, not that I listen to a lot of emo these days I think, but yeah, I just think that for me, since I don’t consider myself a musician or a real DJ or whatever, it’s more that I share music and do this because it’s fun, and also hope that people who listen to the mixes or the radio show that I do, you might hear a song and think “oh this song is nice, what is this song?”. And it’s not about keeping a certain genre, there aren’t genres I won’t do. THere’s definitely types of music I prefer for sure, but it also depends on my mood or what I feel like listening to at that moment. For me personally if I make a mix, I tend to not make a mix that is just a single genre. Personally I prefer to go about it, more like there’s a story or a progression on my radio show.  But I think that’s also personal. I’m not saying other ways are unlikeable as well, but I think that’s just the pros of doing multiple genres, you could start with ambient and end with hyperpop, so I think that’s more fun for me anyway.s

I sometimes think that genres can be quite elitist. Sometimes someone could think “oh my God, you listen to K-pop?! How could you?” But I think with multi-genre, if you like a track, you just like a track, it doesn’t have to be like “Oh I can’t like this track because it’s this or this genre”, and you can’t lie to yourself

Yeah I understand I use a lot of genres as well. So you’re a resident on HKCR? I can’t wait to tune in!

I think my point is that I don’t take all this stuff seriously, quote unquote, but really I do it because it’s just fun, I kinda of do it just for the joy, but I also know that I have the privilege to do it for leisure, but maybe it is because I don’t have a career as a DJ / musician so I don’t atke myself too seriously in that sense, I do it because I like discovering artists or new music or old music, and I just do it for the fun of sharing and curating

CHINESE VERSION
連結收聽 Yongsi泳思 為 HKCR 特製的 Select Mix 歌單
(Currents.FM/ Spotify)

已近兩年。每天消去外在的毒。每天隔著口罩，幽閉地對話。如此不斷重覆，以前的日常——我們與外界的關係——面目幾近模糊不清。以至，我們開始想像一個還可直接地擁抱世界的過去。但形形式式的消毒劑和口罩，林林總總的壁壘和分界，不也存在於「以前」嗎？——最終，所謂我們與外界的關係究竟為何

在其剛於8 月推出其首張EP《Is anybody out there?》，旅居日本的樂手Yongsi遊戈於自我與他者的邊界，在語言的模糊間，重新叩問「我」為何物。

もうすぐで2年が経つ。殺菌されまくる毎日とマスクに隔離される会話。それまでの生活、外部と私たちとの関係が忘却の彼方に消えていき、やがて私たちは、まだすぐに世界を受け入れることができた過去を想像し始める。しかし、さまざまな形の除菌剤やマスク、さまざまな障壁や境界線は、「過去」にも存在していたのではないのか。外部と自分の関係と呼ばれるものは、結局何なのか。

日本を拠点に活動するアーティスト、泳思は、8月にリリースした1st EP「Is anybody out there?」にて、自己と他者の境界を彷徨い、言語の曖昧さの間で「私とは何か」を再び問いかけようとしていた。

訪問：gari

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Q1. 你好，Yongsi。可以簡單介紹一下自己嗎？

初めまして、泳思。あなたのことを少し教えてください。

你好，我叫泳思。泳思是我媽取的本名，意思是「願你的思緒萬千如永恒的流水一般生生不息」。我生於中國貴州貴陽，是大山里出生，地球上長大的孩子。我從12歲開始作詞作曲，在2019年的時候發佈了我的第一首數碼單曲——〈Where I Will〉。現在，人們把我歸類成「藝術家」。


こんにちは、私の名前は泳思です。母がつけてくれた本名で、「あなたの感性が無限の水のように永遠に流れるように」という意味が込められているらしい。貴州省貴陽市の山生まれで、地球育ち。12歳に作曲を始め、2019年に初のデジタルシングル「Where I Will」をリリースしました。今、人々に「アーティスト」と呼ばれていると思います。


Q2. 當初為何選擇旅居日本？

日本に行ったきっかけは？

沒有特别的理由，就是覺得是時候該去下一站了，所以其實哪裡都是可以的。

特別な理由はなかった。ただ、そろそろ次の場所に行くべきだと思いました。正直どこでもよかった。


Q3. 從中國到日本，這年又從京都轉到東京，這種跨語言、跨地域的經驗對創作有什麼影響？

中国から日本へ、そして今年は京都から東京へ移住したと思いますが、こうした言語や地域を超えた経験は、あなたの音楽にどのような影響を与えていますか？

事實上我也曾在美國和英國居住過一段時間，在英國的居住期間我獨自環游了歐洲一段時間，可以說在海外的時間至少占了我人生的三分之一。這一系列的經歷促使我對時間、空間、萬物以及人情有了些許個人的看法，這些思緒有一部分反應在了我的作品中，而剩下的部分所帶來的意義目前尚未明了，還有太多發生過以及正在發生或是即將發生的點點滴滴都值得我去慢慢摸索。如果要造一個句來描述我精神上所品嘗到的一切，我想我會把它形容成「不以載體而存在的有序的混沌」。

実はアメリカとイギリスにも住んでいたことがあります。イギリスにいたときは、ヨーロッパを旅行していたこともあって、海外で過ごした時間は私の人生の3分の1を占めているのではないかな。このような一連の経験は、時間、空間、物事、そして人間性についての考えを深めるのに役立っています。一部は作品に反映されているけど、残りの部分の意味はまだわかっていないかも。起こったこと、起こってること、そしてこれから起こるかもしれないことのすべてが、落ち着いてゆっくりと探求されるべきだと思っています。心に浮かんだ気持ちを一言で表現すると、「担い手のいない秩序のある混沌」という感じですかな。

『如果要造一個句來描述我精神上所品嘗到的一切，我想我會把它形容成「不以載體而存在的有序的混沌」。』

Q4. 你怎樣看京都的 scene？於京都活動時，有沒有一些經常交流的樂手？

京都についてはどう思われていますか？京都で活動していた時に仲良くなったアーティストはいましたか？

京都比起我去過的其他城市要内向很多，但就像内向的人一樣，那些被藏起來的有趣的事物你是要花時間去摸索的，有些地方如果没有人介紹，你甚至連進都進不去，在日語中這叫做「一見様お断り」。因此人脈就變得非常重要，好多優秀的藝術家就像京都的血液，在看似古老幽静的建築之下川流不息。

比如我經常去的酒吧「KAZU」隱藏在兩棟建在停車場背后的高樓的夾縫之間，要是没有人帶你你會以為那里禁止通行，在那里你會遇到很多帶着光怪陸離的想法來買醉的人。

又或是離市區比較遠，藏在住宅區之間的空間藝術會場「外」，在那裡我開了離開京都之前的最後一場live，策劃這場event的人是我非常尊敬的去年才從東京移居到京都的在日本非常有名的DJ Kotsu，很多他的藝術理念我都非常有感觸，能發展到今天這一步真的受到了他非常多的照顧。同場演出的藝術家還有sound designer/ dancer lyo Taniguchi 和sound maker/ DJ E.O.U。我和Lyo Taniguchi在去年一起制作了他的EP《Nichts》，我擔任了EP全四首作品的作詞作曲人聲和命名，這段制作經歷在很大程度上幫助我找到了自己的曲風。

京都は今まで行ったことのある他の都市に比べて、より内向的な都市だと思います。でも、その内向的な人たちと同じように、隠れた魅力を深く掘り下げようと思ったら、時間をかけなければならないかもね。誰かに紹介してもらわないと入れない場所もありました。日本語ではこれを「一見様お断り」と言います。だからこそ、人脈が大切でした。多くの優れたアーティストたちは、京都の血のようなもので、アンティークで落ち着いた印象の建物の下でシームレスに流れています。

例えば、私がよく通っていたバー「KAZU」なんですが、駐車場の奥に建つ2棟のビルの間に隠れている。誰も連れてきてくれないと、入り口さえ目に映さないほどです。あそこでは、色んな理由を持った酔っ払いに来る面白い人たちにたくさん出会えます。

あるいは、ダウンタウンから離れた住宅街にひっそりとある空間芸術のハコ「外」。京都を離れる前の最後のライブはそこで行いました。このイベントを企画したのは、去年東京から京都に引っ越してきた、私が尊敬しているDJのKotsuです。私は彼のエンターテイナーとしての考え方に多くの影響を覚え、彼のおかげでここまで来ることができたとも言えます。このイベントには、サウンドデザイナー兼ダンサーのLyo Taniguchiや、サウンドメーカー兼DJのE.O.Uも出演していただきました。Lyo Taniguchiとは、昨年、彼のEP『Nichts』を一緒に制作し、4トラックのEPで、作詞、作曲、ボーカル、ネーミングを担当させていただきました。この制作経験によって、自分の音楽スタイルを辿り着くこともできたと思います。


Q5. 現在的音樂路線受到了那些樂手或作品的影響？
現在の音楽スタイルに影響を与えたアーティストや作品を挙げてください。

受影響最大的還是古典音樂，特别是蕭邦跟德彪西。最近受電影配樂的影響比較大，其中最喜歡Jóhann Jóhannsson, Apparat和Jun Miyake。但本次作品的靈感來源於Pink Floyd。

一番影響を受けているのは、やはりクラシック音楽で、特にショパンとドビュッシーですね。最近では、映画のサウンドトラックにも影響を受けています。Jóhann JóhannssonやApparat、三宅純が特に好きです。とはいえ、このEPは特にピンク・フロイドに影響を受けています。

Q6. 《Is anybody out there?》中，每個詞——包括「？」——各自斷成一個個曲名。為什麼選擇以這種方法編排曲目？

「Is anybody out there?」の各曲名については、「？」も含めて、それぞれの単語がトラックタイトルに分解されていると思いますが、なぜこのような構成にしたのですか？

每一個曲名在我心中其實和每一首歌的詞和旋律是相對應的，而他們連起來又是一個完整的句子，對於本次的作品而言每一首歌連起來又是一首更加龐大的曲子。

第一首〈Is〉以英語語法的角度來看，以「is」（be動詞）開頭的句子一定是一個疑問句，這也是為甚麼〈Is〉中使用了帶有民族和原始感的鼓點和旋律，人聲部分模仿了狼的嚎叫聲，並在結尾部分使用了reverse的編曲，目的是想把時間線和空間點拉回世界還是只有大山大河一切都還是未知的年代，從而喚起人們心中最本能的情感。

〈anybody〉是關於狹義的「我」與廣義的「我」之間所進行的意識形態上的談話。第一視角闡述的是以狹義的「我」作為「我」活在這個目能見手能觸的世界所感受到的可言語化的情感。第二視角代表的是廣義的「我」作為「我」/ 「我們」活在意識空間（異次元）所感受到的不可言喻的情感。而這裡所提及的任何一個「我」/ 「我們」可以是任何一個人。

〈out〉想表現的是上述所提到的所有人或意識形態衝破任何一种形態的牆，相互體會最後到達一個頂點融為一體的狀態，而那個頂點就是〈there〉,但〈there〉到底是哪裡，那個狀態到底是甚麼模樣，誰也不知道，所以最後以〈？〉結束。

〈？〉的僅僅是把我開始制作這個EP的那一天的記憶像獨白一樣念了出來，就像從天際旅行終於落地歸根了一樣，所有天馬行空的幻想和混沌的答案最終終結於〈？〉，一個最平凡無奇的瞬間，而那些瞬間所帶來的力量就好像游走在我身邊的暗流，為此我仍願意在任何一個隨機的瞬間醒來。其實打個最好理解的比方，整個EP的構造就好像出生或者死亡或者性愛一樣哈哈哈。

私にとっては、どの曲も歌詞とメロディが対応していて、それらがつながって一つのセンテンスになっています。今回の作品では、1曲1曲がつながって、1つの作品になってる感じです。

英文法では、「is」（動詞「be」）で始まる文は必然的に疑問文になります。だからこそ、1曲目の「Is」では、トライバルでプリミティブなビートやリズムが使われ、オオカミの遠吠えをボーカルで模倣し、エンディングではリバースでアレンジされています。その目的は、時間と空間を、山と川以外はまだ何もなかった時代に戻すことで、そうすると人間の最も本能的な感情を呼び起こすことができるのかなと思って作りました。

「anybody」では狭義の「私」と広義の「私」との思想的な対話をイメージしています。第一視点で描かれているのは、見たり触れたりできる世界に生きている狭義の「私」の、言語化可能な感情で、第二視点では、意識空間（異次元）に生きる広義の「私」の言語化できない感情を表しています。ここでいう「私」や「私たち」は、誰でもあること。

「out」は、上述したすべての人々やイデオロギーが、あらゆる形で壁を突き破り、お互いを経験し始め、最終的にひとつになったときの状態を提示しようとしています。その頂点がまさに「there」にある。しかし、「there」は一体どこなのか？どのような状態なのか？それは誰にもわからないので、「？」で終わらせました。

「？」では、このEPを作り始めた最初の日の記憶を独白のようにただ単に喋っているだけ。まるで宇宙旅行を終えて地球に戻ってきたかのように、様々な空想や混乱した答えが「？」という最もありふれた意外性のない瞬間で終わっています。そして、この瞬間に発生したパワーは、私の周りにあるアンダーカレントのようなもので、いつ目が覚めてもいいようになっているのです。端的に言えば、EP全体の構造は、生や死、セックスのようなものです。

『一個最平凡無奇的瞬間，而那些瞬間所帶來的力量就好像游走在我身邊的暗流，為此我仍願意在任何一個隨機的瞬間醒來。其實打個最好理解的比方，整個EP的構造就好像出生或者死亡或者性愛一樣哈哈哈。』

Q7. 相比此前兩首單曲，《Is anybody out there?》似乎更注重表現人聲和言語的朦朧曖昧。這與EP的創作理念有沒有關係？

前の二作のシングルに比べて、「Is anybody out there?」は、人間の声の不明瞭さや曖昧さをより強調しているように感じますが、これはこのEPのアイデアと何か関係がありますか？

非常有關係。但這背後關乎到的創作理念牽扯到了太多東西，所以我目前只想提及其中一個小小的思考。在習得多語言之後，我有一個非常深切的感受，就是「語言（符號）」很多時候不是在幫助我們溝通，而是在促使各種誤解和猜想，因為語言和物質之間的關係是隨機性的。好多時候我會常常感覺到被語言「出賣」了，這並不是空口無憑的胡說八道（也可能只是因為我太不會聊天），而是關乎到語言學上一個「雞生蛋蛋生雞」的問題，俗稱薩丕爾沃夫假說，感興趣的話可以去了解一下，真的非常有趣。但我想說的是，好多時候語言能夠給我們提供的信息比我們想像的要多得多，而有的時候卻少之又少。在那之中有真有假，如何判斷，最終還是要去問我們自己的内心。暫時的敵對和盲目的跟随都是枉費，所以不管是誰給你提供了甚麼樣的選項，你都應該去感受和尋找屬於自己的真相。只用了解了你自己，你才有可能去了解和善待他人。

たくさんあると思います。ただ、このアイデア全体に関しては、単純に話すことがたくさんあるので、今回はちょっとした考えをここで共有したいと思います。いくつかの言語を学んでみて、「言語」（象徴）は私たちのコミュニケーションに何の役にも立っていないどころか、さまざまな誤解や憶測を引き起こしているように感じています。それは、言語と物質の関係が本質的にランダムなものだからです。私はいつも言語に「裏切られている」と感じてしまっています（会話が下手なだけかもせんけど）。一般に「サピア・ウォーフ仮説」と呼ばれる言語学の「鶏と卵のパラドックス」のような問題やけど、興味のある方は調べてみてください。結構おもろいですよ。とにかく、私が言いたいのは、言語によって伝達される情報は、常に私たちが聞いたことよりもはるかに多いか、はるかに少ないかのどっちかってこと。真実と偽りが共存しているから。判断の仕方というのは、結局のところ自分自身に問いかける必要があります。一時的な敵意と盲目的な追従はすべて無駄になること。だから、誰からどんな選択肢を与えられようと、それが何であろうと、常に自分自身の真実を感じ、追求しようとするべきなのです。自分自身を理解して初めて、他人を理解し、相手を優しく扱うことができるようになるのです。


Q8. 這次的EP由Yosi Horikawa負責混音和mastering。兩位合作的契機是甚麼？合作過程中有沒有什麼有趣的經歷？

このEPのミックスとマスタリングはYosi Horikawaが担当していると思いますが、このコラボレーションはどのように始まりましたか？また、今回のコラボレーションで何か面白い経験はありましたか？

Yosi Horikawa是我在京都時相識的一位DJ Alex介紹的，我們只通過郵件交流過，還沒有見過面。要說有趣的經歷的話，對於我來說應該是在他幫我混音的期間我一直無限循環他的〈bump〉，就為了想像他到底會怎麼美化我的作品哈哈哈。

Yosi Horikawaを紹介してくれたのは、京都で知り合ったDJのAlexです。ずっとメールでのやりとりしてたので、今でも直接に会ったことはないです。面白い体験といえば、彼が私の作品をどのように完成してくださるのかを想像するために、彼の「bump」をずっとループしてたことかな（笑）。

Q9. 原音樂器、田野錄音與電子音聲在你的創作中分別有什麼作用？在作品中，三者有著怎樣的關係？

あなたの音楽において、アコースティック楽器、フィールドレコーディング、電子音はそれぞれどのような役割を果たしていますか？また、その3つはどのように関連しているのでしょうか？

原音樂器是我作品的地基，我一般在寫歌的階段只用鋼琴。田野錄音只是我的個人愛好，我還是在靠近自然的地方比較放的開一點。而電子音是為了加重整體的龐大感。

アコースティック楽器は、私の作品の基礎となるもので、いつも作曲する時はピアノしか使わないので。フィールドレコーディングはあくまでも好みなので、自然に近い方が自由な感じがします。一方、電子音は作品全体に巨大さを加えるために使ってます。

『所以不管是誰給你提供了甚麼樣的選項，你都應該去感受和尋找屬於自己的真相。只用了解了你自己，你才有可能去了解和善待他人。』

Q10. 能分享一下未來的計劃或展望嗎？

今後のプランを教えてください。

有可能會嘗試發佈一張只用鋼琴和人聲錄制的即興演奏的專輯。

ピアノと人の声だけで録音した即興アルバムを出してみようかなと思っています。

Yongsi 泳思的首張EP 《Is anybody out there?》現已發行。

ENGLISH VERSION

Listen to the Select Mix created by Yongsi for HKCR (Currents.FM/ Spotify)


It has almost been two years. Every single day is sterilized, with conversations quarantined by the masks. Our life before – the relationship between the external and us – has been fading into oblivion, that we eventually start imagining a past that we still could immediately embrace the world. But didn’t various forms of sanitizers and masks, different barriers and dividing lines, also exist in the “past”? What is ultimately the thing that we call the relationship between the external and us?

With her first EP “Is anybody out there?” released in August, the Japan-based artist, Yongsi tries to wander around the borders between the self and the other, asking the question “What am I?” again in the ambiguity of language. 

Interview by gari

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Q1. Hi, Yongsi. Tell us a bit about yourself.

Hi, my name is Yongsi. It’s my real name given by my mother, which means “may your sentiments be infinite, as everlasting as the eternal flowing water”. I was born in the mountains of Guiyang, Guizhou, but an Earth brought up child. I started composing songs at the age of 12, and released my first digital single Where I Will in 2019. Now I think people would categorize me as an “artist”.

Q2. What brought you to Japan in the first place?

With no special reason. I just felt like it’s time to move on to the new place. Honestly, it could be anywhere.


Q3. Moving from China to Japan – once again, from Kyoto to Tokyo this year – how do such translingual and transregional experiences influence your music?

In fact, I had also lived in the US and the UK for some time. When I was in the UK, I had also been travelling around Europe for a while. Time I spent overseas probably takes up one-third of my life. This series of experiences help me develop some ideas concerning time, space, materials and humanity as well. They are partly reflected in my works, while the meanings of the remaining parts are still yet to be known. Every bit of the happend, the happening, and the going-to-happen deserves to be explored calmly and slowly. If I were to depict what came across my mind with only one sentence, I would say it feels like “an orderly chaos that exists without a bearer”.

Q4. What do you think about the scene of Kyoto? Were there local artists that you got along with when you were active in Kyoto?

Kyoto is a much more introverted city compared to others that I’ve been to. But just like the introverts, time has to be spent if you want to dig deep into those hidden gems. You can’t even get into some places if you’re not introduced by someone – in Japanese, this is called “Ichigen-sama-okotowari” (一見様お断り). That’s why being well connected is so important there. Many outstanding artists are like the blood of Kyoto, flowing underneath those buildings which seem to be antique and tranquil, seamlessly and endlessly.

Like the bar KAZU which I used to go to. It is hidden between two skyscrapers built behind the parking lot. If no one brings you there, you’d probably think entry is restricted. Over there, you can meet a lot of people who come to get themselves drunk for some odd reason.

Or the spatial art venue Soto which is hidden in the residential area away from downtown. I held my last gig there before I left Kyoto. The event was organized by the famous DJ Kotsu, who moved from Tokyo to Kyoto last year, and who I respect very much. I was moved by many of his ideas of being an entertainer, he means a lot to me for being able to come this far. Artists like sound designer/ dancer, Lyo Taniguchi and sound maker/ DJ, E.O.U also performed in the gig. Lyo Taniguchi and I produced his EP Nichts together last year. I took charge of the lyrics, composition, vocal and naming of the 4-track EP. This experience in production helped me find my own musical style to a large extent.


Q5. Could you name artists or works that influence your current musical style?

The biggest influence still comes from classical music, especially Chopin and Debussy. Recently, film soundtracks have also been quite an influence on me. Jóhann Jóhannsson, Apparat and Jun Miyake are my favorites. That said, this EP is particularly inspired by Pink Floyd.

Q6. Each word in Is anybody out there? – including “?” – is broken down into track titles. Why did you choose to arrange the tracks in this way?

To me, lyrics and melodies correspond to each other in every song; and when they are linked together, they form a complete sentence. For this work, as every track is linked together, they in turn form a larger piece of music.

In English grammar, sentences that begin with “is” (the verb “be”) are questions necessarily. That’s why in the first track Is, tribal and primitive beats and rhythms are used, wolf’s howl is mimicked by the vocals, and the closing section is arranged with reverses. The aim is to bring time and space back to the epoch when all were still unknown but mountains and rivers, and by doing so, the most instinctive emotions of human beings can be evoked.

anybody is an ideological conversation between the “me(-s)” in a narrow sense and in a wider sense. What’s illustrated in the first perspective is the verbalizable emotions of “me” in the narrow sense qua “me” who lives in the world that can be seen or touched. While the second one represents the unverbalizable emotions of “me” in the broad sense qua “me” who lives in the space of consciousness (in another dimension). The “me” or “us” here, can be anyone.

out seeks to present the state that when everyone or ideologies mentioned above break through the walls in any form, starting to experience each other and eventually unite in one. This apex is exactly there. But where exactly is there? What is this state like? It is unknown to all, so it ends with “?”.

? is nothing but a word that verbalizes – somehow like a monologue – my memories of the first day I started making this EP. It feels as if I came back to Earth in the end after a space trip, all sorts of fantasies and disorganized answers have ended with a “?” – the most common, unsurprising moment. And the power generated from this moment is like undercurrents around me, so I’m still willing to wake up at any moment. To put it simply, the structure of the whole EP is just like birth or death or sex lol.

Q7. Compared to the two previous singles, it seems that Is anybody out there? has a stronger emphasis on the obscurity and ambiguity of the human voice. Does this have anything to do with the idea of this EP?

A lot, I would say. But there is simply a lot to talk about when it comes to the whole idea of it, so now I’m just going to share a little thought here. After learning several languages, I really feel like “language” (the symbolic) is not helping us communicate at all, it is rather triggering various misunderstandings and conjectures. It’s because the relation between language and the material is essentially random. I always feel like I’m “betrayed” by language, no kidding (maybe it’s just because I suck at talking). It’s related to a chicken-or-the-egg paradox in linguistics that is generally called the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis. Check it out if you’re interested to know more, it’s really intriguing. But what I want to say is that information transmitted by language is always either much more than we have heard, or much less than we have heard. Truth and falsehood coexist. The way of judging, at the end of the day, requires us to ask ourselves. Temporary hostility and blind following  all go to waste. So, no matter who gives you an option – whatever it might be – you should always try to feel and pursue your own truth. Only when you have understood yourself, you are likely to be able to understand others and treat them well.


Q8. This EP is mixed and mastered by Yosi Horikawa. How did this collab start? Was there any interesting experience in this collab?

I was introduced to Yosi Horikawa by DJ, Alex, who I met in Kyoto. We’ve been interacting only through e-mails, so we haven’t met each other face-to-face even now. Speaking of interesting experiences, to me, it’s probably that when he was doing the mixing for me, I kept looping his bump, just to imagine how he would embellish my work, lol.

 Q9. What roles do acoustic instruments, field recording, and electronic sound play respectively in your music? How are the three related in your work?

Acoustic instruments are the cornerstone of my works, generally I only use piano for composition. Field recording is only a sort of preference, I feel freer being close to nature. While electronic sounds are used to add immensity to the work as a whole.


Q10. Could you share your future plans?

I might try to release an improvisation album that is only recorded with piano and human voice.

Yongsi’s debut EP ‘Is anybody out there‘ ? is out now, listen.

CHINESE VERSION

Flora Yin Wong （黃映彤）是來自倫敦的音樂人，DJ，作家，也是前Dazed雜誌音樂編輯。她的音樂及寫作作品發行和出版於廠牌Modern Love，PAN，Circadian Rhythms，以及雜誌zweikommasieben，Somesuch Stories等。我在曼徹斯特的The White Hotel觀看了她的演出，並邀請她為香港聯合電臺做一個電郵採訪。在這個採訪裡，我問了她各種問題，有跟音樂報導相關的，有跟她今年出版的書《Liturgy》相關的，有跟她寫作和音樂裡都出現的（東）亞洲元素及隨之而來的闡釋相關的，當然，也有跟香港—她母親的出生地—相關的。

（Flora在別的採訪裡講到過在這座城市工作的經歷，她還寫作過幾則反映她在香港短暫生活的故事，都值得一讀。）

訪問：梁安琳 Anlin Liang

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問：你認為你在音樂報導行業工作—採訪藝術家，寫音樂評論等—那幾年的經歷對你做音樂有任何説明嗎？從採訪者轉變為被採訪者，你最大的感想是什麼？

　我不會說我作為記者的經歷幫助了我的音樂製作，但這更多只是因為音樂一直都是我生命裡很重要的一部分，我有各種參與音樂的途徑，但當時的我也沒有製作「音樂的能力」。我不再熱愛音樂報導了，我感覺這個行業已成為一個藝人傳輸帶系統。角色轉變後我的確有種奇怪的感覺，但我也對採訪問題有著很高的期望，同時我盡可能誠實而開門見山地作出回答。


問：我讀過你以前的採訪，你提到自己曾嘗試製作俱樂部音樂，卻沒有什麼進展。Laila Sakini在一個採訪裡說過跟這個有點類似的—她說她對於自己做的俱樂部音樂很害羞，不會分享給很多人聽。我覺得這個很有意思，有時人們想要做某樣東西，結果卻做出了非常不一樣的別的東西。你能說說看你當時想做的俱樂部音樂和你現在做的音樂間的差別在哪嗎？

　我自己從未完成過任何一首會被看作是「俱樂部/techno音樂」的歌曲，但是我的早期發行中的確有混合入這些元素…我的專輯製作則是一段非常孤獨的體驗，大概也有在音樂中體現出來。Laila是我的好朋友，實際上，我們正在為今年的Atonal音樂節進行準備合作，這是個慣常來講非常techno的音樂節，所以我們走著瞧哈。


問：能說一下你在The White Hotel演出時播放的錄影嗎？你為什麼選擇以它作為演出的視覺部分？

 我在那場演出中使用的錄影視頻（之前在Kings’s Place和Kelly Moran一起演出時也用的是這個），大部分是我用GoPro時使用了錯誤的配置拍攝的隨機時刻。這些視頻大多來自我獨自在巴厘島的旅行，夜晚我在荒無人煙的地方跟計程車司機進行漫長的對話。這些錄影令人不悅的節奏，他講給我聽的那些鬼故事，我們偶爾路過的市場中使用的特別「亞洲」的燈帶，這些都讓我聯想到某種既現代又單調，然而卻古老又無法看見的事物。


問：我想問下跟你寫的書「Liturgy」相關的問題—這本書原本是要跟「Holy Palm」一同發行，但現在單獨出版了(如果我沒弄錯的話)。對我而言，這本書裡的大部分讀起來像是一個目錄，記錄「帶著隱藏預言」的故事，地點，聲音，動物，精神疾病等等…你是如何為這本書的寫作進行研究的？你在書中寫作的各篇之間有什麼關聯呢？

　對的，（書和專輯）是同時寫作的。書像是一本小的百科全書，各種故事和歷史的選集。它們大部分都是我腦海裡持續的想法和感興趣的內容，然後在紙上進一步鞏固和探索。這些詞彙，故事，活物，不真實的造物，人類信仰等等，普遍地緊密連接。

問：我看到別人用「東方vs西方」，「亞洲（東亞）文化」，甚至是「尋根」這類語言來形容你的音樂，也看過你在別的採訪裡說到過這是別人的闡釋，而你本意並非如此。但在看過你的書「Liturgy」，以及讀過你其他採訪裡談到使用傳統的中式樂器之後，我還是想問，當你面對比如—說得簡單粗暴一點—「東方」哲學或者「東方」聲音這樣的東西時，你是在尋找「歸根」這種感覺嗎—在這些故事，符號，聲音中與自己建立更強的連接；還是說，你是在用面對其他任何事物時帶有的好奇心去對待這些事物的？

　這也許不是出於有意，我對其使用也不是出於我覺得這能夠代表我—更多是因為它們實際上是「異國的」，然而對我而言卻或多或少感覺熟悉，因此顯得有趣。我喜歡這種也許我在身體和心靈上跟某些東西以更為黑暗而隱藏的方式有著能夠追溯到過去幾代人的連接，這樣的感覺，即便我自己無法理解。對特定樂器的使用則是階段性的，我總是希望能夠觸摸和探索新的樂器。


問：你覺得自己對這個世界的看法是聽天由命的嗎？在讀你的文章「Into the Gorge」之前我沒聽說過奧杜瓦理論。你覺得人類是跟理論預測的一樣，要完蛋了嗎，還是說你覺得人們還是可以尋找出路的？

　要回答這點，我不認為人們應該尋找出路。我討厭因為有能力，就要去延長壽命這樣的想法，也討厭對永生的林林總總的癡迷。一個想像中的「末日」戲劇顯然帶有某種解放的理想主義意味。但講到底，這不過是發生在時間線上的又一個事件罷了。


問：香港對你來說似乎是個非常靈性，甚至有些不真實的地方，至少這是在我讀過你發表在Some Such Stories上面的寫作後得出的感覺。不過當然了，靈性的東西是和實在的東西糾纏在一起的…你在「Time」一文中寫到「你從夢中覺醒過來」…是2014年的政治事件震撼了你嗎？現在你怎麼看待自己跟香港的連接？

　我覺得2014年的政治事件是很多人覺醒的契機，即便對我和跟我一樣在那裡過著非常少有而優越的生活的旅居者來說也是如此。我當時很想念我在英國儘管有各種瑕疵，仍（據說）「民主」的家。我當時的心態非常不同，我所感受的更多是從在異國土地上短暫而處處是命理的停留中「醒過來」。我已經好幾年沒有回香港了，但是上次去香港時我感到非常悲傷。越來越「白」的士紳化區域愈發極端和無聊，讓人討厭。在那裡人們仍然對西方有著理想化的看法，同時內地的侵蝕—在語言，文化，和規則上—也十分沉重。


﹙作者梁安琳為一名翻譯員和在修中的人類學學者。﹚


重溫 Flora Yin Wong（黃映彤）先前在 HKCR 的客席混音。

ENGLISH VERSION

Flora Yin Wong is a London-born musician, DJ, writer, and former music editor at Dazed; her music and writing works have been released/published via labels including Modern Love, PAN, Circadian Rhythms, and magazines and outlets such as  zweikommasieben, Somesuch Stories. I caught up with her set at The White Hotel in Manchester in July and invited her to do an interview for Hong Kong Community Radio via email. In this interview I asked her about music journalism, about Liturgy, the book she released this year, about the (East) Asian elements in her music and writings and the interpretations that came with them and of course about Hong Kong, the birthplace of her mother. (Flora talked about some of her experience when she worked in Hong Kong in another interview and wrote stories that reflected her time sojourning in this city, and these are some good reads.)

Interviewed by Anlin Liang

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Q: Would you say your years working in music journalism, interviewing artists, reviewing music, etc., has helped you in any way in materializing your music? What would you say is your biggest takeaway when your positionality switches from the interviewer to the interviewed?

　I wouldn’t say the experience of being a journalist contributed to the work, but more just it was the result of me having different ways of engaging with music as it was always such a big part of my life but I wasn’t ‘able’ to produce anything at that stage. I fell out of love with music journalism when it felt like it became a very conveyor belt system for artists. Now it does make me curious on the other side, but also bear high expectations for interview questions and just try to answer as honestly and openly as possible.


Q: I read your interview about not going anywhere when making club music and I read something from an Laila Sakini in her interview (via zweikommasieben) which is a bit related to this—she talked about how she was really shy about the club music she made and she didn’t show them to many people. I find it pretty interesting that sometimes people want to make certain things but will end up making really different things. Is there anything you could say about the difference between making the kind of club music you wanted to make and making what you are making now?

　I never finished any tracks myself that might be considered as ‘club/techno music’, but do feel like it crosses over more in my earlier releases… the album was a deeply insular experience and probably translates as such. Laila is a good friend of mine and we’re actually working on a collaboration together for the traditionally very techno Atonal this year so will see where we get with that too ha.


Q: Care to talk more about the video footages you used during The White Hotel set? Why do you choose such visuals to accompany your set?

　The footage I used for that show (and previously at King’s Place with Kelly Moran), are predominantly GoPro shots where I filmed random moments on the wrong setting. These were mostly from when I went to Bali alone and was having long chats with the taxi driver in the middle of nowhere at night. The jarring pace of the footage, the ghost stories he was telling me, and the typical ‘Asian’ strip lighting of the occasional markets we passed were really evocative to me of something modern and mundane, yet ancient and unseeable. 


Q: I want to also ask you about Liturgy, your book that was originally intended to be released along with Holy Palm, but now published as a stand-alone project (if I didn’t get it wrong!). I have read it and a large part of it reads to me like a catalogue, or a documentation of things, including tales, places, sounds, animals, mental health conditions, that ‘carried latent potential prophecy’. How did you do your research for this book? I wonder what kind of connection do you see in these different pieces you wrote in Liturgy?

　Yeah they were written in tandem, and is more like a short encyclopaedia or compilation of  assorted tales and histories. Most of them are just ongoing ideas or interests in my head, and then solidified or explored further on paper. They’re all very connected in a universal sense, all the terms, stories, living creatures, unreal creatures, human beliefs etc.

Q: I have seen people using languages like east vs west, or (East) Asian culture, or even ‘going back to the root’ when describing your music, and I know you talked about in other interviews that this is others’ interpretation of something you didn’t really intend to do. But after reading your book Liturgy, and also reading your interviews where you talked about using traditional Chinese instruments, I still want to ask, when you approach such things as ‘eastern’ philosophy or ‘eastern’ sounds—to put it very crudely—do you look for this “going back to the root” kind of feeling, as in you feel more grounded or connected with yourself, in these stories, symbols, and sounds; or do you approach these things with the kind of curiosity just as you approach anything else?

　It’s maybe not intentional and not used as if I feel like it represents me – it’s more that they are in fact ‘foreign’ yet somehow familiar to me and therefore appear interesting. I like feeling like I’m perhaps connected to something physically and spiritually in a darker, insidious way that goes back generations even if I don’t understand it. The specific instruments are just a phase and I’m craving the access to touch and explore new ones all the time.


Q: Would you say you have a fatalistic outlook for the world? I didn’t know anything about the Olduvai theory until I read your essay ‘Into the Gorge’ . Do you think human beings are quite doomed like the theory predicts, or do you think people could work their way out?

　In this respect, I don’t think people should ‘work their way out’ of anything. I detest the idea of prolonging life because of the ability to, and this overarching obsession with immortality. There’s obviously something liberating and idealistic about the drama of a conceivable ‘apocalypse’, but fundamentally it’s just another event on the timeline.


Q: Hong Kong seems to be a very spiritual and also somewhat unreal place for you, at least that’s how I feel when I read your writings on Some Such Stories. But of course, the spiritual is entangled with the real…you said you were ‘awakening from the dream’ in ‘Time’—did the political event in 2014 shake you up? How do you feel about your connection with Hong Kong now?

　The political events of 2014 in Hong Kong were an awakening for many I think, even for me and my ex-pat peers who lived a very different and privileged life there. I was missing my (supposedly) ’democratic’ albeit flawed home in the UK, and I was in a very different mindset which was more about ‘awakening’ from a brief and fortune-filled respite in a foreign land. I haven’t been back to Hong Kong in several years now, and I found the last trip really sad. Whitewashed gentrified areas were much more extreme and boring, and it just seemed really jarring. There’s still a mentality of idealising the West and also at the same time the overbearing feeling of the mainland encroaching – in terms of language, culture and rules.


(Anlin Liang is a translator and a training anthropologist).


Revisit the guest mix she made for us earlier this year.